Beware of Hyper-Grace: Andrew Farley and Jeremy White

Continuing in this look at “Hyper grace”, let’s consider two pastors and writers that perpetuate the hyper-grace view similar to Joseph Prince. These guys may not be quite as well-known but their teaching has influenced many believers. Andrew Farley is the writer of the book “The Naked Gospel” and Jeremy White has written the book “The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God”. Both men espouse very close to the same views regarding this topic.

I bring these two up specifically as a warning for those that may be inclined to take teaching from them.  Their message is mixed and we should know what happens when one mixes what sounds like grace with performance.

That is bad enough but it doesn’t just stop there because with these two there are other doctrinal issues as well.

I have taken some telling comments for examination from each of their two books. I will give each quote followed by my thoughts. So let’s consider Andrew Farley first.

He says, “So I John 1:9 is an invitation to become a Christian.” P 152 The Naked Gospel

(If this is your conclusion about I John 1:9 then something is off.  John was writing I John to believers that, many of which, were seduced by the errors of Gnosticism. Part of that error led to them to thinking that they no longer sinned. However, I John was written that these believers might have fullness of joy in their Christian walk. I John deals quite heavily with abiding in Christ. The tests in I John are not to see whether a person is saved but whether a believer is walking in fellowship and abiding in Christ. We have to be clear that it is possible for believers not to abide. Why else tell a believer to abide? Take I John 2:6 for example: 1Jn 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. So a hyper-gracer that equates abiding with salvation then makes this verse mean that if you don’t walk as Christ walked then you are not saved. Likewise if you hate your brother then it would stand to reason that you are not saved. And it follows really just like calvinistic “logic” concerning I John.)

“In the Scriptures, fellowship with God is not described in this way. Instead, a person is either in fellowship with God and therefore saved, or out of fellowship and therefore lost.” P156

(This equation does not square with the rest of scripture. Be sure that fellowship does not equal salvation itself. Let’s consider Ephesians chapter 5.

Eph 5:8  For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9  (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph 5:10  Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12  For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13  But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

We are told to walk as the people we are. If we are children of light, then we should walk that way. Why is this instruction given then to believers if it is automatic? Also it goes on to say that we (as believers) should not have fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness. They are shameful and bring shame to our Savior. But the light can bring cleansing because the errors can be exposed. Also, how can a believer have ongoing practical fellowship in their Christian walk with God if they are at the same time have fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness??)

“But this is to ignore the work of Jesus, who on the cross cried out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). Jesus was out of fellowship with his Father so we would never be.” P 157

(Take note here that Farely is arguing that Jesus lost fellowship with the Father but the Bible actually says no such thing. That actually amounts to what some call the Jesus Died Spiritually view and it destroys the atonement making Christ a sinner not just a sacrificial spotless lamb. Forsaken there has no indication of including being abandoned in fellowship. Just like David who first said the statement in Psalm 22, Jesus felt physically abandoned in physical pain and emotional suffering.)

“In reality, the term rewards does not appear anywhere in the New Testament. The apostle Paul speaks of a “reward” (singular, not plural) or a “prize” in the context of running a race and reaching the end.” P168

(Farley tries to excuse away the concept of rewards in heaven for believers at the Bema Seat. Talk about taking away positive motivation to serve. Sure we should serve out of love but we can also do so knowing that there is eternal blessing and benefits of it.)

Speaking of Jesus: “Our new spiritual life is actually his life.” P176

(Take this and go back to abide or walking or fellowship. He is saying that Christ actually lives his life through us. The Bible does not say this exactly. But it is a cover for them if challenged on why a believer should walk as Christ walked if they are saved. Of course in that case they should walk almost perfectly. Talk about the fear and depression that can ensue once you realize you don’t walk nearly as perfectly as Jesus walked. Maybe Jesus is not walking through me. Maybe I am not saved. See the problem? We aren’t puppets for Jesus. We still have a will. Calvinism likewise makes us puppets.)

“James 2 communicates that a personal decision is necessary in order for true salvation to occur. Those who appear to fall away from belief in Jesus are those who merely associated themselves with certain doctrines for whatever reason.” P198

(This is incorrect. Yes a person needs to decide to trust Christ but you cannot scripturally say that those that fall away are not saved period. James 2 isn’t talking about a salvation decision. It is instruction for disobedient believers.

What happened with the Hebrew believers in Heb 10? What happened to the Galatians? Why does Timothy say that the Lord remains faithful even if we do not?)

Now let’s see how Jeremy White mirrors these errors.

“It is the believing and receiving of this saving gift of grace that separates real Christianity from any other belief system in the world. It was this grace that Luther and the Reformers so passionately attempted to articulate and defend.”

White, Jeremy. The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God. . WestBowPress. Kindle Edition.

(Luther did not understand grace as much as he should have. Just read Bondage of the Will or better yet spare yourself the misery and look up some quotes from it.  It is curious that he sings the praises of the reformers of the Catholic church. Does reformed Catholicism equal grace? Didn’t they get some much wrong themselves?)

 

“One of the admitted weaknesses of the early “free grace” movement I referred to in the first part of this book was simply that some proponents seemed to imply that a person could claim to receive Christ by faith and then walk away from Him or even completely reject Him without ever casting doubt upon the legitimacy of their salvation. I want to be clear that I am not arguing for such a position in this book. Every believer in Jesus will bear some kind of spiritual fruit, whether it is obviously recognizable or not. On this issue I agree with the free-grace proponent Dr. Joseph Dillow, who said Those who have been born again will always give some evidence of growth in grace and spiritual interest and commitment. A man who claims he is a Christian and yet never manifests any change at all has no reason to believe he is justified.55 Another leading proponent of the free grace position with whom I agree on this point, Dr. Charles Ryrie, also affirms every Christian will bear spiritual fruit. Somewhere, sometime, somehow. Otherwise that person is not a believer. Every born-again individual will be fruitful. Not to be fruitful is to be faithless, without faith, and therefore without salvation.56″

(I bolded sections of this statement that are clearly Lordship in nature. Basically he is saying that salvation is not by grace but by works. there can be no mistake when he says every believer in Jesus will bear some kind of fruit. Remember that a believer is justified in Christ regardless of performance. He is justified regardless if people can see “fruit”. Why because it is not about fruit or performance. It is about Christ and His imputed righteousness. Hmm…not to be fruitful is to be faithless… So if there is not fruitfulness there is not salvation… Doesn’t that sound like the opposite of grace. I wouldn’t be surprised if that quote had come from John MacArthur or Paul Washer. Oh but these guys aren’t like them… they are hyper grace… That’s nice but they are saying the same thing really. Please see my posts on MacArthur and Washer.)

“If I am already totally forgiven for my past, present and future sins by the blood of Christ – then why do I need to confess my sin in order to receive forgiveness?”

White, Jeremy. The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God. (p. 115).

(This is a classic hyper-grace false question because it confuses positional truth with practical onging sanctification principles right within the question itself.)

“Do you know any Bible-believing Christian who claims he or she is sinless?”

White, Jeremy. The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God. (p. 118).

(Yes, actually people have told me that before. One Arminian man told me that basically didn’t sin anymore. Ray Comfort thinks he doesn’t sin any longer…)

“Becoming a Christian begins by the admission of one’s personal sinfulness and that through confession of that sinfulness, one can receive by faith the God who is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse them of all unrighteousness!”

White, Jeremy. The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God. (p. 119).

(Is that the gospel? Are we saved by confession of sin or by grace through faith in Christ based on the gospel? They reason , well we have to agree with God that we are sinners. Sure, unbelievers need to recognize that they are sinners but that is simply so that they can see their need and trust Christ for the remedy. This verse is written to believers anyway. Please see also my Faith Alone stand alone page for an extensive verse list on this.)

“1 John 1:9 is not intended to condone a one-by-one tallying of our sins so that we can confess them in order to find ongoing forgiveness or maintain “closeness” with God. When we have placed our faith in the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ, we are totally and eternally forgiven. Because of the uncut gospel of grace, we are irreversibly close to God regardless of our behavioral performance.”

 (Once again he continues with confusion as to the removal of eternal damnation and the christian walk. If we refuse to agree with God about our sin when the Word reveals it and the Holy SPirit works through that Word then we are resisting God’s onging work in us of sanctification and cleansing.)

“So how is it, then, that we imagine somehow that God the Father doesn’t remember our sins anymore, but God the Holy Spirit does – and that it is His job to keep bringing that sin to our attention?”

White, Jeremy. The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God. (p. 123).

(Yes, as I just stated. The Word reveals the truth and the Spirit works through the Word bringing that truth home to us as believers. This quote is irresponsible. The Word of God is mirror of sorts.)

“It is apparent in the New Testament that the battle we face with our flesh is essentially a battle against the habits and coping mechanisms which bring us momentary pleasure or relief, apart from dependence upon Jesus.”

White, Jeremy. The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God. (p. 163).

(This is part of White’s attempt at one naturism. It is similar to MacArthur’s in that he relegates struggles with sin in the flesh to habits and coping mechanisms in the flesh. However the Bible tells believers to put off the old man and put on the new man in their Christian walk. Now why would believers be told to put on the new man if they are already new creatures? Hyper-grace cannot explain that. They don’t / won’t understand it.)

Conclusion

So let’s tally up the problems. (And there are more btw.) In no particular order:

1) Backdoor lordship performance requirement for salvation to be authentic. (This nullifies grace.)

2) Jesus Died Spiritually / was out of fellowship with the Father while on the cross. (This error nullifies and invalidates the object of our faith.)

3) Virtually eliminating the concept of rewards for the believer.

4) Destroying the concept of ongoing fellowship in our walk as believers

5) Adding conditions such as confession of sins to the gospel method of receiving eternal life

6) Misunderstanding Old Covenant salvation

7) Misunderstanding the Christian life (ie Christ lives His very life through us.)

8) A John MacArthur style modified one nature position. (The flesh is just old habits / coping mechanisms)

9) A confusion of practical and positional forgiveness.

10) Fellowship = salvation

There is more than enough here to recommend marking and avoiding these teachers and don’t stand for anyone recommending them to you.

Jim Floyd

This entry was posted in Calvinism, Heresy, Hyper grace, Lordship Salvation, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

60 Responses to Beware of Hyper-Grace: Andrew Farley and Jeremy White

  1. Nadinemarie Warner says:

    Thank you Jim

    Sent from my iPhone

    >

  2. Nadine Warner says:

    Thank you for this clear teaching !

  3. Tara says:

    Wow….just about 4 to 6 months ago I started listening to Farley….something was off & a “nagging” that he was teaching “Calvinistic doctrines”!!! At the same time I started listening to Mike Kapler & Joel Breuseke youtube channel “Graceroots” & think I may have heard the same things…particularly in one vid where Kapler was quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 & said that it was the “faith” that was the gift not the Salvation.

    I am really struggling with the fact that His blood has cleansed us from all unrighteousness & at the same time I hear Christians say we sin DAILY…which is true, & that God will discipline his own children & you will know when He does, then they treat what that discipline was like super top secret info that cannot be shared!

    When I look at myself…….I should be black & blue daily!!!

    I know I have placed my trust in the finished work of Christ & He is my righteousness.

    Thank you for both posts on Prince, Farley & White warning us!!

    God bless

  4. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Tara,

    You are welcome.

    Yes, if anyone says faith is the gift as opposed to salvation then they have changed the gospel.

    As for our daily sins, remember that God loves us as a patient and forbearing heavenly Father. Our actions can hurt him but any chastisement is done out of love for our good. Not out of vindictiveness. For some people it technically could get to the point where God bring them home early but this is again for the best both for that believer and for Christ’s reputation. But these are extremes. Many times believers respond properly to the Holy Spirit through the word and deal with sin issues as they arise. That is really the point. Live your life free from law bondage and fear of a taskmaster god and instead walk in love with our risen Lord who has provided us eternal salvation and security.

    Jim Floyd

  5. Tara says:

    Thank you for the encouraging words. Our Savior is teaching me with a patience & gentleness that brings tears to my eyes! It really is an all out war for truth & we who have believed are under attack from all sides!! I am learning to listen to the still small voice when something seems off with a “teacher” & prayerful that it isn’t my “prideful” desire to be right….if that makes since! I am amazed at His faithfulness, always reminding me with Scripture that He is able to save FOREVER those who come to the Father through Him!! Truly amazing grace!!

  6. Mark says:

    Andrew Farley, Paul Washer, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Dave Hunt and many others are Calvinists that believe in Once Saved Always Saved better known as Eternal Security. This is a view that contradicts Scripture and it comes from a Gnostic Buddhist Pagan named Augustine. Thus the term Manichaeism which is religious or philosophical dualism is where Calvinism origins has stemmed from.

  7. jimfloyd12 says:

    Mark,

    Calvinists do not really believe in eternal security. The believe in perseverance of the saints. Yes, Calvinism including perseverance of the saints, possibly has roots in Manichaeism and or Catholicism. Augustine blended and borrowed from various influenced such as those. But it has nothing to do with Biblical eternal security. If there is not eternal security then there is no Savior that provided the eternal solution to your eternal problem. But Biblically.. there is such a Savior.

  8. Curtis M says:

    Hi Mark
    Eternal security is the gospel … Please provide chapter and verse of contradiction you speak of ..
    a soil must be perfect to enter heaven rev 21:27

    Questions to ponder
    Who then can be saved? 
    saved from what ?
    saved to what ?

    what is Jesus saying here mat 19:26
    With men this is impossible
    what is impossible for man to do ?

    Mat 19:25  When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 
    Mat 19:26  But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. 

  9. Philip says:

    And grace to you Jim! I am assuming you are all in with John MacArthur!
    “I just want to be perfect” as the website for Grace Community Church has stated next to Johns picture.
    Calvin is so amazing and got everything right! I have to believe you are all in Calvinist? Correct?
    We need more MacArthurs in the world!
    Accuse Christians they aren’t.
    Boast how perfect John MacArthur is or John Calvin
    Condemn Christians
    Judge Christians
    Who do not act like you
    Believe like you
    Talk like you
    Think like you
    Walk like you
    BTW! Ephesians 2:20 is clear concise of who is the Savior for Andrew!!!

  10. Philip says:

    How did the Roman soldier go to Heaven? Was Jesus already crucified?
    Jesus said Your Faith …
    What about the thief on the cross?
    What about the woman at the well?
    Hebrews 11:6????
    Faith Hope Love …

  11. jimfloyd12 says:

    Philip,

    How is anyone saved? It is by grace through faith. No works or merit of our own can help.

  12. jimfloyd12 says:

    Philip,

    I gather that you are new here. Please see my other posts exposing John MacArthur’s lordship salvation. My blog uphold grace and rejects calvinism outright. The problem with hyper grace is that it misses the mark as well for the reasons given.

    Jim Floyd

  13. Gary West says:

    Your comments regarding grace and salvation not producing fruits is on line with the cheap easy believism grace abuse running rampant in the church today. Paul said “examine yourselves to see if you are really in the faith”. If there is no fruit one should be concerned about the legitamacy of their salvation. We are saved by grace and if it is real there will be new desires to change out of gratitude for what Christ has done.

  14. jimfloyd12 says:

    Gary,

    Your reaction is typical of a lordship viewpoint but please consider grace. What I am teaching concerning grace is not rampant in churches. It is not taught much at all. Most churches I come across either teach some form of works salvation or they trample on grace bad enough that they might as well be teaching works salvation.

    First, there is no such thing as cheap or costly grace. Grace is free. It means unmerited, otherwise it isn’t grace. Cheap grace still technically isn’t grace. If man merits anything it isn’t grace, it is works. Receiving salvation by faith is the only non-meritorious thing a person can do to receive eternal life. Remember that God paid the sin debt in full. He paid it all and there is nothing therefore left for anyone to pay. So it is free, not cheap. Second, no one is saying grace is cheap because for Christ it cost him His physical life as He willingly suffered extreme emotional and physical agony for us in death.

    Paul did tell believers to examine themselves but we should be careful not to twist that out of context. Those believers had questioned his authority and authenticity, but he throws it back on them.

    2 Cor 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

    He was not doubting that they were saved and not saying to them to check themselves by works inspection, but saying to them rhetorically, see if you be in the faith.

    2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Didn’t they know they had Christ (the object of faith) dwelling in them? Of course they did. That is their answer to Christ speaking through Paul. Paul likewise had Christ as in they were all believers in Christ.

    If you follow down in the text he says that he trusts that they will also remember that they have believed in the same Savior.

    2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

    You said, “If there is no fruit one should be concerned about the legitamacy of their salvation.”

    This is not what the Bible says anywhere though it is a very popular and oft voiced misconception. For one it is too vague and besides that the legitimacy of salvation is tied only to the object of faith, not performance after receiving salvation by faith. Either you are graciously covered in Christ’s blood with His imputed righteousness or you are not. Those that spit upon grace have their warnings in scripture not to offend a Holy God. God especially dislikes it when a person believes yet is fooled into going back to law keeping for salvation / sanctification. Think of the Galatians or the Hebrews.

    The Bible says that He remains faithful even if we are not always.

    You said, “We are saved by grace and if it is real there will be new desires to change out of gratitude for what Christ has done.”

    If anyone is saved it is by grace (unmerited). It is always real if Christ is the object. But be careful with that last part. If we 1) know that we are saved and 2) reflect upon it, we then can indeed be motivated to change out of gratitude. This is living by grace. But remember, lordship salvation and or Calvinism makes it virtually impossible to know if you are saved 100 percent. It always fluctuates with performance. And since that is the case, it is hard many times to reflect upon your salvation when you are unsettled. It is the rollercoaster ride Christianity perpetuated in so many LS churches across the world. It really is an active denial of grace and runs against grace in the operation of the Christian walk. For grace to work it has to be unmerited. It has to be from the One object of faith. It cannot be mixed with meritorious works. There also has to be permanence of position in Christ. From that fixed standing, one can finally know they have been redeemed and finally actually live free to do what God desires. But they need to abide and grow by choice. God gets glory when we choose right and is grieved when we don’t. He is not a puppeteer.

  15. florinracolta says:

    Fruit is not performance

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.”
    ‭‭GALATIANS‬ ‭5:22-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬
    https://www.bible.com/100/gal.5.22-23.nasb

  16. Loretta Marks says:

    If God indwells us, he abides in us and we in him. Abiding is not performing, it’s existing in Christ. I guess I have to listen to Mr. Farley and see what he has to say about it and judge for myself through God’s spirit that abides in me.

  17. jimfloyd12 says:

    Loretta,

    There is a difference between being in Christ positionally and choosing to abide in Christ practically in our Christian walk.

  18. jimfloyd12 says:

    For example,

    1 John 2:28 ¶And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    This is an example of believers being told to choose to abide. It was not an automatic type of indwelling.

  19. hollysgarcia says:

    Loretta, Abiding in the Vine is something believers are asked to do. There is a difference (as Jim explained). Eternal life is not a process, it is immediate. Becoming a disciple is work and cooperation with the Lord.

  20. hollysgarcia says:

    Good answer for Gary Jim. People can certainly abuse God’s grace, but 2 Cor 13:5 is so often interpreted badly by those who teach a works salvation.

    Nowhere does it say in the Bible, ‘if there is no fruit, they should be concerned about the legitimacy of their salvation”.
    But it does give us a very good example of fruit that tells us someone is a false prophet.
    They look like sheep outwardly.
    They did many wonderful works in His name (which He does not deny).
    But inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    So how do we ‘know them by their fruits’?

    It is by the fact they try to justify themselves by their wonderful works.

    Believers should absolutely present their bodies a living sacrifice (Rom 12:1-2). They should be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). They should add to their faith so they won’t be barren and UNFRUITFUL (2 Pet 1:5-9).

    But thank you for standing for the faith Jim, it’s sad to see so many repeat the same garbage over and over, not realizing they are condemning themselves in the process.

  21. Jake says:

    Your words don’t accurately represent Andrew Farley’s position.

  22. jimfloyd12 says:

    All of Farley’s quotes above are his words and they are each false statements. I read back through them and my comments and what he said is clear.

  23. Lori says:

    Yes beware – we wouldn’t want God to give a free gift without working for it or doing something for it. It can’t be a FREE!!! GIFT!!

  24. jimfloyd12 says:

    Lori,

    God’s gift is free for us. No need to tack on works.

    Jim

  25. chas says:

    Jim…

    Thanks for this article. I finally got around to reading the whole thing with responses after having it listed in my favorites for months now. (I have a list of web articles in my “2 Study on Sunday” file.) That’s what I do on Sundays; online research, having been unable to find a fellowship within a reasonable distance from my home pastored by someone who knows what “repentance” in salvation means. Coming to this site (and expreacherman) is my “church on Sunday” thing.

    I’m not very familiar with this “hyper grace” thing, but from your comments it sounds like a better name for it would be “pseudo-grace”. Also, I’ve come across some things that make me wonder about some who claim to be “Free Grace”, but are not. I guess you just can’t trust labels.

  26. Scott Boxrud says:

    Very interesting. I don’t believe you are being fair. Andrew Farley has helped me really understand my identity in Christ and here you come along and claim you are some authority on scripture. Who are you? So according to your great wisdom and understanding who would you suggest would be acceptable to take instruction from beside the Bible of course and your great knowledge. You pretty much dismiss most teachers out there. Give me an example of someone deserving of your respect.
    Gifts have ceased! Huh? Wow there goes half of so called Christians.

  27. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Scott,

    I am simply a person that has noticed some of the problems in what Farley is saying. People need to be warned especially when they might be unsuspecting due to perhaps things he might say that are right.

    As for who I respect, I only occasionally listen to Pastor Tom Cucuzza besides my own pastor. The sad thing is that many don’t get the gospel right. But that isn’t my fault. Not everything is a separation issue. But if teachings tarnish the gospel then why tolerate it?

    As for gifts, I specifically mean the “sign gifts” have ceased such as tongues. I suppose a person that truly understands the gospel could be of a different viewpoint on those. That wouldn’t be as big of an issue as confusing the gospel. But you’d want to be wary of it.

  28. Gregg says:

    Mistakes abound here although many of the hyper grace issues are accurate. We must abide to remain saved. Furthermore, a true faith produces works even though it is faith which saves. That is what scripture teaches.

  29. jimfloyd12 says:

    Gregg,
    The Bible never teaches that person must abide to stay saved. We are purchased by Christ’s precious blood. The moment one receives salvation belief of the gospel they are born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. There is no way to undo the price that was paid or you reception or the benefit in terms of eternal life. Otherwise God is a liar many times over. But I trust that you know that He is not. Scripture needs to clarify scripture with the more clear passages used to help decipher less clear or problematic passages.

    Jim

  30. jimfloyd12 says:

    Gregg Powers,

    Your comment isn’t approved but I can answer your questions. And yes I consider all scriptures.

    Jim

  31. jimfloyd12 says:

    John 15 is talking about believers abiding for the purpose of bearing fruit. “Burned” is not a reference to hell fire. It in context of the branch analogy.

    4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    5¶I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

    8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

    Further down it says:

    9¶As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

    10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

    11¶These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

    God desires us to keep His commandments. We can have fullness of joy when we abide and obey. Or sin will cause a problem with your practical walk of fellowship with your Savior. See also I John 1. 4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

    It’s not, these things write we unto you that you stay saved.

    Jim

  32. Gregg says:

    Thanks for the response but the branches are clearly defined as those in Christ in v1 whom the father will take away if we refuse to bear fruit for God works through us if we will allow him. You are welcome to tell me the meaning of the first since the branches are established to be individuals in Christ the vine.. Take away is Greek airo meaning to rend away, cut off and in this context cut off from Christ. True faith begets works even though as stated before they do not directly save. Once not in Christ, one is lost. Suggest you consider the verbs phthora and apollymi in their contexts as well. I will not be responding again. I am sorry, but the fact that you will not show these responses tell me that you are manipulating the messaging and manipulating people instead of trying to have a reasonable dialog of what scripture actually says. Remember even the early church fathers, those much closer to Christ and the apostles, reject what you teach.

  33. Max says:

    Mark says:
    February 12, 2019 at 7:34 pm Andrew Farley, Paul Washer, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Dave Hunt and many others are Calvinists that believe in Once Saved Always Saved better known as Eternal Security.
    I am new to this site and comments etc……just want to pick up and correct what Mark above. Dave Hunt is not a Calvinist and has written an excellent book exposing the Calvinist doctrines the book is called ‘What kind of Love is this’

  34. jimfloyd12 says:

    Max,

    Thanks for catching that. I don’t believe Dave Hunt fits in that list. I did read the book years back and would have to say he was basically against calvinism.

    Jim

  35. Dom says:

    Hey Jim,

    what happens if someone is genuinely saved once and for all eternity, then refuses to forgive someone after that genuine salvation moment in time (we still have our free will I’m assuming after salvation)? Does that nullify Matthew 6:15? How can that person enter heaven if Matthew 6:15 still applies? Or are we saying that God will allow people who die in their unforgiven sins to enter heaven? Or is salvation and entering heaven two different concerns (i.e. it’s possible to be eternally saved, but still fail to make it to the promised land?). How does eternal security square with these edge cases?

  36. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Dom,

    A person that believes the gospel is saved eternally from thar point onward. Christ’s righteousness is forever imputed to them.

    The Matthew 6:15 reference is to the believers walk here on earth in terms of practical fellowship. I compares well to I John 1:9. If we as believers refuse to forgive others as we have been forgiven then we are not at the same time walking in practical fellowship with the Father. But if we confess that sin, he is faithful to forgive us and restore fellowship / cleanse us in our walk.

    Many believers have died with sins that were uncontested. But that doesn’t mean they were positionally made righteous in Christ the moment they believed. They will however miss out on some rewards they could have had otherwise at the bema seat.

    The Bible uses the word salvation in various contexts. Many times it is referring to earthly deliverance. Sometimes it is referencing eternal deliverance. The contexts are what are key ti knowing the difference.

    Everything squares away just fine when one has the contexts properly deciphered.

  37. Gregg says:

    There are plenty of references to loss of salvation in context. This is a teaching of men, not God.

  38. jimfloyd12 says:

    Losing eternal salvation is teaching of men. Scripture is clear that eternal salvation cannot be undone.

  39. jimfloyd12 says:

    Gregg,

    If you would like to discuss a specific passage where you think it teaches that a believer can lose or did lose their eternal life then we can discuss it. But calling me a false teacher isn’t going to help anything. The fact of the matter is that the false teacher will deny many of God’s promises. One of the biggest ones that gets denied is the promise of eternal life. The only more often denied is that salvation is by grace without works.

    Please see also https://www.redeemingmoments.com/eternal-security/

    That article goes through and explains it in great detail. Please study and reconsider before you continue to try to teach people that God didn’t mean what He said concerning His promise of eternal life to those who believe. There is no sin ti be had in standing for the truth of His provision a.d promise.

  40. Gregg Powers says:

    I don’t think you understand the promises of God. This is the single greatest failing in understanding this issue. Promises of God are received by the faithful but we see faith fail. Faith failed for the Israelites leaving Egypt and as a result many did not receive the promise of God to enter the Promised Land. Faith failed in Eli whom God promised that he and his family would minister before Him forever but he did not receive the promise because of his lack of faith in dealing with his sons. There are others. We see faith fail throughout scripture and hence the warnings. The promises of God WILL be fulfilled to those that remain faithful. It is not faithful to abandon belief in Jesus Christ nor is it faithful to act in a manner inconsistent with where the Holy Spirit leads. God will help us but does not control us. Even what you sent does not apply context. For example. “Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us” The author only reads the promise but ignores the beginning of the passage starting with the command “therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning.”. I can tell you from personal experience that people who assure things that scripture does not only create sin. Christianity is moving more and more towards the world and it is due to those who say (and you do logically and the article provided explicitly) that a person can do anything they want once coming to Christ and they remain saved. Brother anyone who either directly or indirectly endorses sin is not of God and that is exactly what that doctrine does. You may want to consider (and decompose the Greek) 2 Peter 1:10, Galatians 5:19-21, Galatians 6:7-9, Romans 11:16-23, John 15:1-6, Romans 2:7-8, John 5:28-29 and the like. As i stated it is a doctrine of John Calvin and the Gnostics but rejected by virtually all the early church fathers meaning that your claim would be the church Christ died to found started off with incorrect doctrine. If you need the quotes let me know. Contact a Reformed Seminary and ask them where the doctrine came from. But in the end, scripture is of paramount importance. The problem is people refuse to read it in both proximate and scripture wide context.

  41. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Gregg,

    I have allowed your comment since there are some that would like to speak to it. For me, I can go over it more thoroughly later but let me respond first to one thing. You said, “Christianity is moving more and more towards the world and it is due to those who say (and you do logically and the article provided explicitly) that a person can do anything they want once coming to Christ and they remain saved. Brother anyone who either directly or indirectly endorses sin is not of God and that is exactly what that doctrine does. ”

    My response: Christianity moves toward the world because it loses view of the gospel and of grace. False teaching and legalism wears people out and leaves them empty. In the end the world is more appealing than fruitless law keeping and fear. To be clear, a person can by the way of capacity choose to sin or do right every moment of every day. What they choose has no bearing on their eternal state as salvation is not worked for. It is provided for us by Christ based on what He did. There are even consequences for sin but for the believer a consequence is never loss of the already given eternal life. This neither directly or even indirectly endorses sin. The Bible actually says God forbid that we use grace as an occasion to sin. See Romans 6. Sin is never permitted. It is never God’s will. But you don’t sin less by law keeping. One sins less by walking in thankfulness for the great deliverance that Christ has provided us. We can learn to walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh.

  42. jimfloyd12 says:

    Gregg,

    I don’t tend to allow comments that contain false teaching as in many of your comments. I may choose to interact will all or portions of them. This site is my personal blog not a sounding board for false teaching as in losing eternal life. Also sometimes I have other things to do before I can get to comments as I am the only admin.

  43. jimfloyd12 says:

    True faith does not beget works. Faith in the gospel yields salvation. Faith in the Christian life yields the right results, see James 2. The John 15 passage compares well to I John 1. I John was written to believers that their joy would be full. Choosing to walk in the Spirit bears fruit.

    John 15:1  I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 
    John 15:2  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 
    John 15:3  Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. (The people were clean yet told to practically abide.)
    John 15:4  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 
    John 15:5  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 
    John 15:6  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (Think of those mentioned in Rev 2 – 3 that were believers but were facing temporal earthly judgment if they did not repent.)
    John 15:7  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 
    John 15:8  Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. (God is glorified when believers abide and bear fruit,not when they are disobedient.)
    John 15:9  As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. (This is an ongoing choice.)
    John 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. 
    John 15:11  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. (At stake is not our eternal life but our joy in our walk as believers. Along with that goes a possible forfeiture or future rewards and a lost ability to be good testimonies for Christ. In that way one ceases to glorify Him.

  44. hollysgarcia says:

    Gregg, I think you may miss some of the understanding of the promises. God has conditional promises, and unconditional promises. He will bless Israel IF they will _____________. Depends on the Covenant. Although Moses did not enter the physical promised land in this lifetime, he will in the next. The promised land was not some metaphor but a literal physical place. He will still receive those promises.

    Moses was saved eternally. Sounds like you are saying differently.

    You may not understand the method of adoption in the Bible, and a son that became family (including a servant). Eli may have failed in his sons, however, God did not fail and gave him a son in Samuel. That promise was kept. So I think you may miss on understanding bilateral vs. unilateral promises.

    It also seems you do not understanding abiding in our walk, or growing in our faith, or the reality of a carnal Christian which is clearly shown to us in Scripture. Not once is there an example where they say, ‘whoops, their soul was lost eternally.’

    God’s promise of eternal life is not conditioned on our behavior but our response to His truth.

    No one here encourages licentiousness. Nor do they commend themselves or measure themselves to others (like ‘contacting a reformed seminary’) to be able to ‘understand’ something. Plenty have been to seminary, not only here, but who are in the world. It means nothing. You said one thing right. In the end, Scripture is of paramount importance and has the power behind it to accomplish what God sent it to do, what He pleased when He sent it (Heb 4:12; Is 55:10-11).

    I had to smile and shake my head some at your Calvinist proof texts. Friend, I know I will not convince you. The apostles had such a great hope, so they spoke with great plainness of speech. Calvinists tend to be puffed up and think of men beyond what is written (1 Cor 4:6). If you don’t understand the simple gospel, you can be immersed in all the proof texting you can garner from JMac to AW Pink, and never be saved. Please consider dropping them for awhile, asking Him to show you anything you need to unlearn, especially where you may have corrupted minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.

  45. Gregg says:

    First of all, i do not accept Calvinistic theology at all; in fact i reject all of the five points although i will admit limited atonement can be a semantic issue. I do not follow any human teacher. I break down the Greek and Hebrew as appropriate. Second can you show me where in scripture God says the promises i used as an example are conditional? Moses is saved but he was faithful. Eli and his family were cut off as God said. Samuel was the son of Elkanah. We do see people in the bible turn from their faith. In fact there are many passages that emphasize that. Do you say that we are saved without faith? The problem is that licentiousness is facilitated. When you tell someone there are no eternal consequences for living in rebellion (and violating many scriptures) it happens. Here is a simple example but i get into discussions with people more often than you might imagine who tell be they remain saved and so sin is of no issue, “But this guy [the pastor] teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven.” He continued later “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does not depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for every sin, so how can I or you be judged by God for a sin when the penalty was already paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.” He them went on to commit mass murder. There are multiple passages in scripture where the Greek word defines loss of salvation. But there are more than 50 warnings from God and yes they do include loss of salvation. it takes incredible twisting of scripture to discount them as irrelevant to salvation..

  46. Gregg says:

    any by the way, its not that God did not fulfill his promises; it those who were given the promises did not receive them by faith……

  47. jimfloyd12 says:

    No Gregg, it take an incredible amount of twisting of scripture to say a person can lose eternal life. I can start listing they verses and passages you’d have to deny.

  48. jimfloyd12 says:

    Right, sometimes they did not but what verse says any one of them lost 5heir eternal life for it?

  49. jimfloyd12 says:

    I am agreed so long as your future posts follow an amiable nature. If it gets to naming calling or a repeat of calling me a false teacher then that’s it.

    As for words of other men, I haven’t been running to nor would I need to. I don’t even put a big stock in study Bibles or commentaries.

    And verses / passages only on this specific topic on this particular post.

  50. jimfloyd12 says:

    Gregg,

    Here are my answers to your recent questions:

    No, continued faith is NOT required for salvation (eternal salvation). What is required is perfection that can only be imputed to us based on what Christ has done.

    Faith is believing something to be true. As in, I heard the gospel and believed it to be true for me. The truth of the gospel was so convicting that manifested belief in it. The type of faith you speak of can also be a part of tge Christian walk. But it is a big mistake to convolute Christian living principles with conversion itself. The calvinists are great at that with their discipleship addins for example.

    It is not required to love God in order be converted. Neither is it required to stay saved eternally.

    A person live in sin and remain saved from hell. The Bible is full of examples of believers that were called out for their sins.

    God does not control actions. He is not a puppet master like as Calvinists may claim (not explicitly but implicitly). God does speak through the Word. Believers need to be in it to know what God wants them to do. The Holy Spirit works though it yet men still have the choice to walk in the Spirit that was given them or walk practically in their flesh.

    Yes, one as a believers can indeed technically act as if they are an enemy of God. They are not true positional enemies since they have been born again, but all believers will still sin and even one sin is them acting as God’s enemy at least in that instance.

  51. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Gregg,

    For me I find certain passages come to mind when I think about what God has accomplished for us. I see mankind as having an eternal problem and that God has sent Christ to be the eternal solution to that eternal problem. That said, one passage is Eph 1. Verse 7 talks about our redemption by the blood of Christ. Then it says:

    Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 
    Eph 1:12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 
    Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 
    Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 

    So believers once were unbelievers but heard the truth of the gospel, believed it, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit. The sealing is something God does and man cannot undo it. The idea is that He will received us as His purchased possession. Those of which He redeemed are and will be His. Only the king can open the seal so to say. So there is a promise that one day we will be with Him. We have an inheritance with Hima nd the Holy Spirit is the earnest. He is the pledge or promise. We know God is true and cannot lie. The Holy Spirit is God (third person of the Trinity). The verses compares well with 2 Cor 1:22 which says, “Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

    I also think of other verses like those in Col 3.

    Col 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (These are instructions to believers that have the capacity to sin or do right. They need to be told to do right and then indeed can do right.)
    Col 3:2  Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. (Believers are to set their affection on eternal things.)
    Col 3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (This is the eternal position of the believer. We are dead in the flesh, but alive to God in the Spirit. Our life is hid with Christ. He is our covering.)
    Col 3:4  When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (This is a promise to all believers. It would be impossible to say when Christ who is our life sahll appear then you might too if you don’t…. fill in the blank. If you don’t fail to perform, do right things, persevere in the faith etc. Going back to the promised redemption idea, we will be with Him (not lost).
    Col 3:5  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: (Knowing this truth, we as believers are instructed to practically put to death the things mentioned here. We were like this and walked this way before. It therefore is a rotten shame to walk this way now.)
    Col 3:6  For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 
    Col 3:7  In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 
    Col 3:8  But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. (So we are to put these things off. Put off the flesh ans walk in the Spirit. This is a moment by moment choice.)

    Hebrews 10 is the other because I think about those that are sanctified.

    Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (The law sacrifices didn’t provide perfection or eternal redemption.)
    Heb 10:2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 
    Heb 10:3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 
    Heb 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Only Christ’s blood could forever take away sins.)
    Heb 10:5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 
    Heb 10:6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 
    Heb 10:7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 
    Heb 10:8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 
    Heb 10:9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 
    Heb 10:10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (We as believers are indeed set apart through the offering of Christ. This is the picture that communion portrays. He body broken for us and His blood shed for us.)
    Heb 10:11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 
    Heb 10:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (One final sacrifice for sin for ever. There is not a need for new sacrifices or for being saved eternally over and over again. Christ’s sacrifice accomplished forever that which was required by God the Father. He did say that “it is finished”. SO on the cross He had accomplished everything. He died, was buried, and rose to newness of life. That is the picture of baptism. We are raised incorruptible.
    Heb 10:13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 
    Heb 10:14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.  (God has perfected us forever as in those of us that are set apart. When He sees me He sees Christ’s righteousness applied to my account.)

  52. Gregg says:

    We don’t know that. The verses are clear in the Greek that salvation can be lost. These include definitions of the words and the tenses of certain verbs. But conversely neither of us have left this life so neither of us know who was saved and was not. But in the end, guaranteed unconditional salvation comes from Calvin. Even Luther could not support what you teach. I at least acknowledge in scriptural balance assurance of salvation, but it is not the guaranteed, unconditional type you preach which ignores the plain warnings given by God in scripture. I am more than happy to address the contexts of the passages you would quote. I do not deny the passages but just place them in context. Will give you the chance to do the same. But we cannot stop at the English alone. We must go to the Greek in many cases to address what they really say.

    But as a foundation tell me the basis of what you believe; i am willing to do the same.

    Is continued faith required for salvation?
    Do you believe faith is just an intellectual acknowledgement or one that is so convicting it manifests itself?
    Is it required to love God for salvation?
    Does one have to make an attempt to obey God? (Can a person live in sin and remain saved?)
    Does God control men’s actions after coming to Him?
    Can one be an enemy of God (that is friend of the world) and remain saved?
    Do you believe that man

    But let me set the expectation before we start that i do not expect you to conceal or edit our interactions. Also i would ask that neither of us run to what other men say. That is part of the problem in not relying on scripture. Are we agreed?

  53. Gregg says:

    Agreed to your terms. Please forgive me for not starting off amiable. Would you like to do verse by verse? Or a couple of verses at a time. You can decide who starts.

  54. Gregg says:

    Just to set the baseline here are my scriptural perspectives before i start with scripture. I apologize in advance that some of the scripture responses will be a little longer. I will also post some at a time as well. Here are my scriptural perspectives.

    No, continued faith is NOT required for salvation (eternal salvation). What is required is perfection that can only be imputed to us based on what Christ has done.

    I believe scripture teaches that ongoing faith is required. Scripture almost universally expresses belief in the current present tense, not the perfect tense. Furthermore those who did not maintain faith did not receive the promises of God.

    Faith is believing something to be true. As in, I heard the gospel and believed it to be true for me. The truth of the gospel was so convicting that manifested belief in it. The type of faith you speak of can also be a part of tge Christian walk. But it is a big mistake to convolute Christian living principles with conversion itself. The calvinists are great at that with their discipleship addins for example.

    True faith manifests itself in what we do. It is a human condition. What we TRULY we believe we generally act upon. Not with perfection, but with conviction.

    It is not required to love God in order be converted. Neither is it required to stay saved eternally.

    I believe it required to love God to stay saved. It is also the greatest commandment. Again we do not know perfect love.

    A person live in sin and remain saved from hell. The Bible is full of examples of believers that were called out for their sins.

    The bible is clear we cannot live in sin and remain saved. Mark the words live in sin. We all sin; that is not in question but there is a difference between striving to avoid it and being committed to it or living in it by trivializing it..

    God does not control actions. He is not a puppet master like as Calvinists may claim (not explicitly but implicitly). God does speak through the Word. Believers need to be in it to know what God wants them to do. The Holy Spirit works though it yet men still have the choice to walk in the Spirit that was given them or walk practically in their flesh.

    We agree i would only add that God also leads through the Holy Spirit apart from scripture although scripture is the primary means.

    Yes, one as a believers can indeed technically act as if they are an enemy of God. They are not true positional enemies since they have been born again, but all believers will still sin and even one sin is them acting as God’s enemy at least in that instance.

    Commitment to sin or continual sinning are not permitted. David sinned on multiple occasions and repented. Moses did the same. Many others in scripture committed themselves to sin and were destroyed.

  55. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Gregg,

    I think I understand the polar opposite nature of your view. I will keep that last comment for person reference so that I know where you stand on it. But what I am curious in is why you think the Bible teaches it? As in what verses do you use besides the ones you already listed? It may be that I have heard many before, usually by Calvinists however that teach that a person the does X for an unspecified amount of time wasn’t saved in the first place. Though I have met an Arminian that thought that a person wasn’t saved if they had done the same sin more than once. Regardless the result was Lordship salvation or you weren’t saved.

  56. jimfloyd12 says:

    Gregg,

    I had pretty much gathered what your take was already. But I wanted to touch on the last part. You said, “Commitment to sin or continual sinning are not permitted. David sinned on multiple occasions and repented. Moses did the same. Many others in scripture committed themselves to sin and were destroyed.”

    I think a lot of this is going to come down to the idea that I am going to say those types of ongoing sins in the live of believers are indeed not permitted but the consequences never include loss of eternal life. Destruction of physical life isn’t the same as loss of eternal life. God will sometimes take His children home if they persist in stiff necked disobedience and do shame to the cross and their Savior.

    The other one I will address now, (the rest we will get to later, is where you said, “The bible is clear we cannot live in sin and remain saved. Mark the words live in sin. We all sin; that is not in question but there is a difference between striving to avoid it and being committed to it or living in it by trivializing it..” There would have to be verses that say that a person living in sin had lost their eternal salvation. Like my former Arminian acquaintance, he saw two of the same sins as enough to say someone was living in them. It becomes arbitrary. But he is wrong anyway. Hebrews 6 says there is no more sacrifice for sins, There is one and it is applied once. It is good forever. To act as if it is not and contrary to God’s will is to really spit in His face. That person may even face removal from this earth.

  57. Gregg says:

    i know this is long and i tried not to make it longer but here goes. if you decide you prefer to do this through email i am fine with that.
    Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    So believers once were unbelievers but heard the truth of the gospel, believed it, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit. The sealing is something God does and man cannot undo it. The idea is that He will received us as His purchased possession. Those of which He redeemed are and will be His. Only the king can open the seal so to say. So there is a promise that one day we will be with Him. We have an inheritance with Hima nd the Holy Spirit is the earnest. He is the pledge or promise. We know God is true and cannot lie. The Holy Spirit is God (third person of the Trinity). The verses compares well with 2 Cor 1:22 which says, “Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
    I don’t think there is any scriptural basis for claiming the seal is unbreakable; that is a human addition because God did it; but God has done many things man has undone. Even looking at the Greek for passages which say so reveal that there is the possibility of the Holy Spirit remaining with us (ex. John 14:16, KJV “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.” Modern versions often replace the “may” with “will”, but the mood of abide is subjunctive, the mood of possibility). God could have inspired John to write without the use of the subjunctive verb, but he didn’t.,
    I also think of other verses like those in Col 3.
    Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (These are instructions to believers that have the capacity to sin or do right. They need to be told to do right and then indeed can do right.)
    Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. (Believers are to set their affection on eternal things.)
    Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (This is the eternal position of the believer. We are dead in the flesh, but alive to God in the Spirit. Our life is hid with Christ. He is our covering.)
    Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (This is a promise to all believers. It would be impossible to say when Christ who is our life sahll appear then you might too if you don’t…. fill in the blank. If you don’t fail to perform, do right things, persevere in the faith etc. Going back to the promised redemption idea, we will be with Him (not lost).
    It is a promise, but it is not an unconditional promise. As a stated to another person on your blog, God promised all those in Israel that believed (Exodus 4:31) they would be delivered into the Promised Land (a metaphor as warned of in Hebrews 3-4) but they did not enter in because they fell into unbelief as their actions demonstrated. God swore he would not do what he said he would do (Joshua 5:6). PS This does not make God untruthful, just our understanding of how the promises of God are realized. They did not receive the promise of God by ongoing faith which is the requirement to receive the promises of God. There are more examples but this probably suffices to make the point.
    Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: (Knowing this truth, we as believers are instructed to practically put to death the things mentioned here. We were like this and walked this way before. It therefore is a rotten shame to walk this way now.)
    Col 3:6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
    Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
    Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. (So we are to put these things off. Put off the flesh ans walk in the Spirit. This is a moment by moment choice.)
    I agree with the last point but the point is if you refuse to do this, you qualify as a child of disobedience. They will experience the wrath of God. But the issue as I understand what you believe is that a person may ignore these commands and remain saved and we have plenty of Christians doing exactly that.
    Hebrews 10 is the other because I think about those that are sanctified.
    Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (The law sacrifices didn’t provide perfection or eternal redemption.)
    Agree; but Jesus’s sacrifice provides the basis for forgiveness of all sins. It does not actually forgive them all based on his sacrifice for if that were the case, the whole world would be saved. When one comes to Christ their past sins are forgiven (ex. 2 Peter 1:9) because only those committed can be forgiven because they have been committed. We are also promised forgiveness of future sins if we are faithful.
    Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
    Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
    Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Only Christ’s blood could forever take away sins.)
    It does take away sins forever but not all at once. Forgiveness is spoken of in scripture as occurring multiple times. Furthermore, most often justification is also spoken of in continuous present tense but sometimes in aorist as I remember. But his sacrifice was sufficient to provide forgiveness and payment for all sins as long as we walk in the light (ex. 1 John 1),
    Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
    Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
    Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
    Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (We as believers are indeed set apart through the offering of Christ. This is the picture that communion portrays. He body broken for us and His blood shed for us.)
    Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
    Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (One final sacrifice for sin for ever. There is not a need for new sacrifices or for being saved eternally over and over again. Christ’s sacrifice accomplished forever that which was required by God the Father. He did say that “it is finished”. SO on the cross He had accomplished everything. He died, was buried, and rose to newness of life. That is the picture of baptism. We are raised incorruptible.
    It has nothing to do with being saved over and over (in fact Hebrews 6 would suggest that does not occur). The sacrifice for sin is once forever but we do not receive all that at one time. It is finished means all sins are paid for. There is no place where God has forgiven sins in advance. Christ paid for the sins of the whole world (ex. 1 John 2:2) but that does not mean that everyone is forgiven otherwise all would be saved since sin is what separates us from God. Paid for and forgiven are not the same scripturally. We are still required to come to Christ in faith. Consider 1 John 1:7-9 “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
    This states pretty clearly that if we walk in darkness we do not have the truth. Hence walking in the light is required. However if we walk in the light…the blood of Jesus cleanseth us from all sin. This directly ties our actions and path to current and future forgiveness. Cleanseth (to free from guilt of sin and purify) is again continuous present tense meaning that all sins could not have been forgiven at acceptance of Christ; ongoing cleansing or purification occurs. Remember v7, it is the blood of Christ that provides this cleansing and through which sins are forgiven. Then v9 is conditional. Again the use of the subjunctive verb for forgive. The mood of possibility. What is the condition? Confession of our sins. Hence all our future sins are not forgiven at acceptance of Christ.
    Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
    Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (God has perfected us forever as in those of us that are set apart. When He sees me He sees Christ’s righteousness applied to my account.)
    Perfected here means “to make one, meet for future entrance on this state (that is a state of perfection) and give him a sure hope of it even here on earth” It is the future entrance into this perfected state, giving us hope while we are on this earth. It is not a case that we are in a perfected state now. Remember this is talking about the actual act on us; not some view through Christ. Once we enter the state of perfection, we will remain in that state forever.
    Here are a few for you.
    Galatians 6:7-9 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
    First of all this is written to Christians and are warned that God is not mocked. How could a Christian mock God? But what is the choice presented here? It is to sow to the Spirit or the flesh. Sowing to the flesh yields corruption. But if we are saved once and forever how can we know corruption different than the world (that is of the body)? It is spiritual corruption. Corruption is Greek phthora meaning “the loss of salvation, eternal misery.” Only a saved person has the freedom to choose between sowing to the Spirit and the flesh.
    2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
    A command of God to give diligence in making our calling and election sure. Diligence (Greek spoudazo meaning to exert oneself, endeavor) and fall (Greek patio meaning to fall into misery, become wretched often so in Greek writings: of the loss of salvation).
    Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Greek aphístēmi, meaning to fall away, become faithless)
    Shows pretty clearly we can lose our faith and depart from God. A couple of verses later cements the context (v14) “For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” and (v19) “So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”
    1 Corinthians 10: 1-12 ” Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
    Warns us pretty carefully using the example of Israel not to continue in sin which constitutes failed faith. Futhermore, fall here (Greek pipto meaning to fall from a state of uprightness) shows pretty convincingly that we can fall from a state of being upright, that is able to stand before God (ex. Luke 21:36)
    2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. Diligence again (Greek spoudazo meaning to exert oneself, endeavor). Without spot (Greek áspilos meaning free from vice; unsullied) and blameless (Greek amṓmētos that cannot be censured, blameless).
    Both of these last two are efforts that God commands of us. They make no sense if all righteousness was accounted to us on first belief.
    Finally, let me address a couple of things that are in response to your questions.
    First, the human condition of salvation is faith. It is almost always expressed in the continuous present tense in scripture. Not as a perfect verb (past action with continuing effect). But we see faith fail in both scripture (ex. Hebrews 3:12) and life showing it does not always endure. In fact we are commanded to endure (ex. Revelation 3:10).
    Second, there are more than 50 warnings throughout scripture to believers (not unbelievers). If the idea of OSAS were accurate not only are these specific warnings and the consequences stated by God disingenuous, but they may be termed as dishonest which I am sure we both agree God is not.

  58. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Gregg,

    For your longer response, yes email is better. Send it again to Standforthefaith12@charter.net that way I can reply back as needed.

    Let me at least try to answer these questions here.

    A person being taken out of this world is still a big deal. Any opportunity they had for service or laying up treasure in heaven is gone. And it is what the Bible describes. There were believers in the OT where their sin lead to their deaths. Ananias and Sapphira were actually two new testament examples. It would have impressed upon those around with just how serious God is about things especially concerning his establishment of the church. Remember, salvation is by grace and that grace even exceeds those who later spit in God’s face so to speak out of disobedience. Also God the Father does not deny God the Sons imputed righteousness. He may though remove those from this earth that persist in damaging His name. Temper that with the fact the He is also long-suffering, slow to wrath and plenteous in mercy.

    The believers in Rev 2 and 3 many of them were threatened with death if they did not repent of their wickedness. (Remove their candlestick). Same for those in Heb 10. 26¶For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

    31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    The specific sin there was acting as is God’s grace wasn’t enough and that the blood wasn’t Holy. They sought law keeping and legalism even though they were set apart.

  59. Gregg says:

    I think a lot of this is going to come down to the idea that I am going to say those types of ongoing sins in the live of believers are indeed not permitted but the consequences never include loss of eternal life. Destruction of physical life isn’t the same as loss of eternal life. God will sometimes take His children home if they persist in stiff necked disobedience and do shame to the cross and their Savior.
    So brother the logic here is that the more a person sins, the faster God will bless them by calling them home into His presence? It is ALWAYS better to be with the Lord than here on earth. A doctrine which states that if a person sins enough God will bless them with eternal life with Him sooner is a doctrine that emphasizes the flesh (this world) over the world to come. That is it is better to be here than with the Lord. Why do you think great fear seized the church that Ananias and Sapphira were part of? Shouldn’t they have been praising God for extending mercy in calling home two people lying to the Holy Spirit instead of being in “great fear”?

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