Kyle Idleman, Not a Fan, and Common Problems with Lordship Salvation Part 1

Kyle Idleman is the Teaching Pastor at Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky and he has written a popular book titled Not a Fan. Idleman, Kyle (2011-06-07). Not a Fan: Becoming a Completely Committed Follower of Jesus Zondervan. Kindle Edition

His book attempts to distinguish between what is called a “fan” and what a believer really is. It should be no surprise to some that the author is using this book to set forth a strongly Lordship view of salvation.  I have read the book and have included certain key quotes with my reaction.

I have found that these views are not limited to this one book but are a part of a growing mindset among people who claim to be Christians.  I don’t offer my critique with any inclination to be harsh or mean spirited. I want the true gospel to be untainted and for God’s truth to be magnified. So, to take a stand for the faith, here are my observations and reactions.

Speaking of a “Fan”, Idleman says the following:

“There is no sacrifice he has to make. And the truth is, as excited as he seems, if the team he’s cheering for starts to let him down and has a few off seasons, his passion will wane pretty quickly. After several losing seasons you can expect him to jump off the fan wagon and begin cheering for some other team. He is an enthusiastic admirer.”(p. 24)

My Comments in blue:

(We must note here that Idleman’s definition of a fan is an “enthusiastic admirer” which just means basically an unbeliever.  See, to Idleman,  a believer must be a “true” follower. We should also remember that the unsaved person has no sacrifice to make in order to believe the gospel and be saved.)

Speaking of Nicodemus Idleman writes:

“In fact, his friends and family wouldn’t even have to know. He could talk to Jesus at night and quietly make a decision in his heart to believe in Jesus; that way it wouldn’t disrupt his comfortable and established life. That sounds like a lot of fans I know. Fans are happy to follow Jesus as long as that doesn’t require any significant changes or have negative implications.” (p. 30)

(Believing is the only way of salvation – that is, believing in Christ and His finished Work to save. Idleman insinuates that a believer must commit to certain changes in order for his faith to be true. In relation to Nicodemus, Idleman also seems to be mixing conversion with steps of obedience after conversion.)

“Jesus would not accept a relationship with Nicodemus where he simply believed; Jesus wanted Nicodemus to follow. Jesus didn’t just want Nicodemus just at night; he wanted Nicodemus during the day too.” (p. 31)

(Jesus wants all men to simply believe. That is how a man is born again. Becoming a committed follower is part of progressive sanctification. While it is possible that Jesus wanted Nicodemus to follow, it is not how Jesus told him how to be saved. John 3:16.)

Biblical belief is more than mental assent or verbal acknowledgment. Many fans have repeated a prayer or raised their hand or walked forward at the end of a sermon and made a decision to believe, but there was never a commitment to follow. Jesus never offered such an option. He is looking for more than words of belief; he’s looking to see how those words are lived out in your life. When we decide to believe in Jesus without making a commitment to follow him, we become nothing more than fans.” (p. 32)

(Raising a hand during an invitation or repeating a prayer does not save but a person who has just trusted Christ alone for salvation may respond that way.  We see this straw man argument used often by Lordship proponents. Where in the Bible does it say that salvation is not only by grace through faith? (Eph 2:8-9) Is not a “commitment to follow” a form of works? Yes, God does see how we are living our Christian lives but does not base our salvation on our progress.  Idleman is basically saying here that faith is NOT enough! There must also, according to him, be a commitment to follow in discipleship. False.)

“One of the reasons our churches can become fan factories is that we have separated the message of “believe” from the message “follow.””(p. 32)

(Belief is NOT a “commitment to follow”. A belief in Christ alone for salvation based on the gospel is a change of mind from our own way of salvation to God’s only available way for us of salvation. Yes following does require movement, but our conversion does not. Eph 2:8-9)

“If you try and separate the message of follow from the message of believe, belief dies in the process. Our churches will continue to be full of fans until we break down the dichotomy between following and believing. Following is part of believing. To truly believe is to follow.” (p. 33)

(Belief is NOT dependent on following.  I can’t stress that enough. One can actually be a believer but not necessarily a committed learner/follower.  Likewise a person can be a “follower ” but not a believer.  Many unsaved people try to follow Jesus. The sad thing is that they get so focused on the hype about following that they miss the first part about believing.)

“Maybe that’s your story. When you heard the gospel, someone talked at great length and passion about you making a decision to believe, but said little about the fact that this commitment would necessarily change the way you live. I call this “selling Jesus.””(p. 33)

(If you mean by “making a decision to believe”, making a decision to trust in Christ alone for salvation, then it was well worthwhile for someone to help talk with you at great length about that!  It is absolutely NOT selling Jesus. It is rather proclaiming the good news of the gospel. There is NOTHING cheap about that! Once again, believing is not a commitment. It is not a promise of anything on our part. There is no merit that we can add.)

“They ordered a gospel that cost them nothing and offered them everything. So in case someone left it out or forgot to mention it when they explained what it meant to be a Christian, let me be clear: There is no forgiveness without repentance. There is no salvation without surrender. There is no life without death. There is no believing without committing.”(p. 35)

(This in a nutshell is the crux of the whole issue. Contributing anything to your salvation i.e. surrender, turning from sins, dying to self, making commitments, counting the cost of discipleship, etc. is to add to the condition of receiving salvation by grace through faith. Eternal salvation is only granted to those who believe with simple child like faith in Christ based on the gospel. (John 3:16) To misunderstand that the Gospel cost Christ dearly but us nothing is to totally misunderstand it altogether. That is exactly why the “lordship” gospel is so dangerous.)

“Like the Pharisees, many fans have given their minds to the study of God, but they never surrendered their hearts. These were men who had plenty of knowledge about God, but they didn’t really know God. This is what often separates the fans from the followers. It’s the difference between knowledge and intimacy.”(p. 42)

(You cannot surrender your heart as an unbeliever. You must believe first. Conversion is not a matter of heart surrender.)

“I’ve talked to people who put off following Jesus because they don’t want to hurt their parents’ feelings. I have had more than one person tell me that when their grandma dies they plan on becoming a Christian. They decide to wait because they don’t want to upset her.”(pp. 57-58)

(Why should we be surprised that an unsaved person would put off following Christ?)

“The relationship he wants with you requires your whole heart. And fans should know that his terms are not negotiable. So before you say, “I want to be a follower,” be sure you understand what it’s going to cost you.”(p. 65)

(Hold up… cost me? I didn’t shed one drop of blood for my salvation. I didn’t die on a cross after living a sinless life or rise again from the dead.  Salvation is freely offered by the One – Christ – who purchased it! He doesn’t need my help to purchase salvation and He doesn’t need me to pay Him back! We do not owe a debt to God for our salvation. We do owe an eternal debt for our sin but can be freed from that on Christ’s merit. It is offered free and clear with no strings attached and no fine print.  It is about receiving His precious gift by faith so that we can be born again as the Bible describes it.  From that point on we have the capacity to either live in the Spirit or the flesh. Part of the Christian life is to learn to walk closely with God in the Spirit but it is a continual and lengthy process. We will never become perfect in that walk while here on earth.  The flesh and the old man do not just go away. They must be crucified daily so to speak.  This is why it is so important to choose to feed the new man and not the old. That which we feed becomes stronger.

God’s relationship with you does involve your heart, but this comes after conversion. Counting the cost is acceptable in making a commitment like discipleship but that is a different matter than conversion.)

This concludes part one. Please feel free to discuss this regardless of your view. I plan to include a brief conclusion at the end of part 2 including more scripture that relate to these issues.

God Bless,

Jim F

For part 2, please click here:
https://standforthefaith.com/2013/08/17/kyle-idleman-not-a-fan-and-common-problems-with-lordship-salvation-pt-2/

For further reading:

https://standforthefaith.com/2014/09/20/bible-basics-is-your-gospel-good-news/

https://standforthefaith.com/2014/05/22/what-is-eternal-salvation/

 

https://standforthefaith.com/2014/02/22/the-gospel-according-to-paul-washer-pt1-the-gospels-power-and-message/

 

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464 Responses to Kyle Idleman, Not a Fan, and Common Problems with Lordship Salvation Part 1

  1. john says:

    Jim, thank you for writing this timely, necessary article! “Not a Fan” is sweeping across the landscape like the plague. There has even been a copy in my house, when my niece was visiting.

    Thanks. John

  2. jimfloyd12 says:

    You are welcome John. I felt that it was time that I addressed this book. I couldn’t help but notice the kinds of reviews it gets on sites like Amazon. Works style salvation sure is popular especially when it is re-packaged as something spiritual sounding like Lordship salvation.

    Jim F

  3. Jim,

    Thanks – I have linked to this article from our Wiki-Heresies and will write an article to all our readers to check out your article.. Great expose of a dangerous man.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  4. Claas says:

    I am thankful for this review. I watched the movie some time ago and it was clear that something is wrong there. Now your words made it clear and easy to understand. It is so wonderful to see that everything has been done for those who simply believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. And it’s so crucial not to mix words and own thoughts and experiences with what Gods Word says.

    God bless

  5. jimfloyd12 says:

    Welcome Claas,

    I am glad that you stopped by. Your comment is an encouragement. I can identify with watching something and feeling that it is off but not quite being able to put a finger on it. I am so thankful as well that I have found the truth in Christ and you are totally correct that God’s Word dictates the the truth to us and not the other way around. Man has a tendency built in to make a mess of things. Please feel free to stop in again.

    Jim F

  6. Jim:

    Thanks for exposing the dangerous LS extremes of this writers.

    He wrote, ““The relationship he wants with you requires your whole heart. And fans should know that his terms are not negotiable. So before you say, “I want to be a follower,” be sure you understand what it’s going to cost you.”(p. 65)”

    That these runs like a thread through virtually every LS advocates’ writing. Here are samples first from Steve Lawson, then three by John MacArthur and finally J. I. Packer.

    But you need to understand the terms for receiving this gift. If you want to receive this gift it will cost you the total committment (sic) of all that you are to the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Lawson)

    Eternal life is indeed a free gift (Rom. 6:23). Salvation cannot be earned with good deeds or purchased with money. It has already been purchased by Christ, who paid the ransom with his blood. . . . But that does not mean there is no cost in terms of salvation’s impact on the sinner’s life. Do not throw away this paradox just because it is difficult. Salvation is both free and costly.“(JMac)

    In our own presentation of Christ’s gospel, therefore, we need to lay a similar stress on the cost of following Christ, and make sinners face it soberly before we urge them to respond to the message of free forgiveness. In common honesty, we must not conceal the fact that free forgiveness in one sense will cost everything.“(JMac)

    That is the kind of response the Lord Jesus called for: wholehearted commitment. A desire for him at any cost. Unconditional surrender. A full exchange of self for the Savior. It is the only response that will open the gates of the kingdom. Seen through the eyes of this world, it is as high a price as anyone can pay. But from a kingdom perspective, it is really no sacrifice at all.” (JMac)

    In our own presentation of Christ’s gospel, therefore, we need to lay a similar stress on the cost of following Christ, and make sinners face it soberly before we urge them to respond to the message of free forgiveness. In common honesty, we must not conceal the fact that free forgiveness in one sense will cost everything.” (Packer)

    All of these men err by seeing no difference between the doctrines of salvation and discipleship. How can the Scriptures teach that salvation is a free gift of God if the human cost to become a disciple, that is, to be born again, is very great as Lordship Salvation advocates insist? Salvation is either the free gift of God, or it is costly to man. The Bible teaches that “the gift of God is eternal life” (Romans 6:23), but discipleship or following Christ is costly (Luke 14:26-27).

    LM

  7. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Lou, I agree that these men misunderstand salvation and discipleship when they attempt to merge the two. Any amount of cost counting on the part of an unbeliever amounts to works for salvation in my view. The crucial message for the unsaved is the gospel message which will reveal our need as sinners, Christ and His provision, and how to receive what Christ has made available to us. For many like JMac, they fumble the ball especially when it comes to how to receive salvation. It becomes a works method once elements of commitment, Lordship, learning and discipleship, and remorse or turning from sins are introduced. Men like JMac are also looking at the problem using a Reformed set of lenses.

    The fact is that this thinking is now prominent throughout much of what is considered Christianity. Those who are of a biblicist free grace perspective need to keep on taking stands for the truth. I am glad that you are one that is doing just that.

    Jim F

  8. hollysgarcia says:

    Thank you for the great review Jim, and for sharing it with us Jack. These men speak of Pharisees but remind me of the Pharisees themselves in Matthew 23. There is only one ball available to the world, the gospel, they punctured it, they have rendered it ineffective with their ‘cost’, and they always use the ‘counting the cost’ in Luke 14 to build their case.

    I agree that it is adding works to salvation, and is a message that sadly is accursed. If that is the message they believe, it is the same passage they use over and over again in Matt 7, that they will hear, because they He neither knew them (I Cor 8:3), nor did they do the will of the Father (John 6:38-40). They do not feed His sheep, therefore I do not believe they love Him, they do not profess belief in the gospel, but they claim more is necessary for it to be ‘correct’. How much clearer can John 6:28-29 be?

  9. Jim (and Lou),

    Good to “see” you Lou.

    Jim, I think you give the Lordship leaders too much credit when you say,“these men misunderstand salvation and discipleship.” After seeing and writing quotes from so many of them, I am convinced theirs in not a misunderstanding but a deliberate scheme to put their “followers” under their rules (no mind whether they ever have ever have eternal assurance in Jesus Christ alone). Their goal is to keep them so fearful of the their “salvation” that these poor souls are cemented in place within LS.

    Thankfully we see a few who open their eyes and depart that evil teaching. We pray your great article will help.

    Keep up the good work.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  10. jimfloyd12 says:

    Sure thing Jack, I agree that there will be and are some that use Lordship salvation concepts for the purpose of control and manipulation. I think much of it goes back to the fact they have been lied to and continue to spread the lie no matter the purpose behind it.

    Your prayers are always valued. Thanks.

    Jim F

  11. Daniel says:

    This not a fan course has taken off like wildfire among many of the evangelical churches in the area I am living in here in Australia. Many have bought the lies of LS, it’s a sad shame.

  12. hollysgarcia says:

    Yes, many deceived and many deceivers…

  13. Alan says:

    Hello everyone. I was wondering if any of you could tell me what Idleman’s church teaches regarding the doctrines of eternal security and baptismal regeneration. I went to their web site, but their doctrinal statement on what they believe regarding salvation was as clear as mud. What do they mean by being “immersed in Christ”? If that does not refer to water baptism, then to what does it refer? According to them, is this immersion in Christ a prerequisite for receiving God’s grace or the result of it? Why such vagueness with regard to such an important topic as salvation?

  14. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Alan, that is a good question.

    I found a link where Idleman and another pastor are talking about baptism. They do not argue for baptismal regeneration but rather view baptism as a public commitment. (Which is still wrong.) I believe that they do this because they also see salvation as a commitment to Jesus as Lord and Master. “Immersed into Christ” is confusing. My best guess is that they view it as a result of God’s grace. IF you don’t want to be baptized then they would look at it as an indication that you have not made Jesus the Lord or your life yet and are still unsaved? See how this gets confusing. Their view would most likely be more of perseverance of the saints rather than eternal security (once saved always saved).

    Please see for sake of illustration the error contained below. It is not really surprising to me that people do not understand baptism if they do not understand salvation.

    Jim F

  15. john says:

    Jim and Alan, the statement of faith from Idleman’s church is as follows:

    “We believe the Bible teaches that one receives God’s grace by putting faith in Christ, repenting of sin, confessing Christ and being immersed into Christ (Romans 5:1-2 / Luke 24:45-47; Acts 3:19; 17:30; 2 Peter 3:9 / Matthew 10:32; Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:11; 1 John 4:15 / Acts 2:38, Romans 6:1-7; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:21”

    The inclusion of Acts 2:38 leads me to think that this church believes water baptism is a condition of salvation. However, even if I am wrong, this church clearly believes that receiving eternal life is conditioned both on repenting of sin and confessing Christ.

  16. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi John, I think it is in the sense that they are questioning whether a person has really made Christ their Lord if they will not obey Him in believer’s baptism. Though, they say baptism itself doesn’t save. It all really is a moot point because they get the gospel wrong.

    Jim F

  17. jimfloyd12 says:

    Daniel,

    I am sorry to hear about what is happening in Australia. Sadly the same has and is happening in America by in large. Free grace concepts are scarce these days.

    Jim F

  18. jimfloyd12 says:

    Holly,

    Yes sadly there will be many disappointed people one day including Lordship salvationists when they hear the words “depart from Me ye that work iniquity.” The sad thing is that Lordship salvation with all of its “making Jesus Lord” and other commitments falls well short of saving a person from that fate. As a matter of fact, any works message for salvation does the same.

    Jim F

  19. mary says:

    so sad its a sign of the times we really are living in the apostasy, we will not have a church for much longer. just get together with other like minded christians who can c these errors. lordship salvation and calvanism is spreading like wildfires. pastors are not strong enough to separate from people who believe this way. they don’t want to be seen as unloving and intolerate they go along to get along. we will have to answer to god in the bema seat the judgemnt seat of christ especially pastors for not directing the sheep in the right direction lets still hold them up in prayer.

  20. jimfloyd12 says:

    Right Mary,

    There are not many Pastors that want to take firm stands. They are more content often times to try not to upset the apple cart. Even if they were to take a stand it would often be against a true free grace understanding of the gospel.

  21. hollysgarcia says:

    You know Jim, when I re-read this, I am just in awe (don’t know why I am surprised), but these men write books and they evidently have not believed the simple message. How could they have if they preach this? I sure hope at one time they did, but in the meantime, I am sickened for all those that they will put in doubt and worry and render ineffective as believers by their bewitching words, fooling people into thinking they can finish what began in the Spirit by the flesh.

    Or worse, if the people themselves are not believers and listen to these men, there is no gospel. Counting the cost?

    Well, can they spell out the cost of the gospel? Why so vague?

    If we look at just the brief excerpts you shared Jim, I cannot imagine the huge amount of error in Kyle Idleman’s book.

    Why not tell us EXACTLY how much time, works, passion, excitement, cheering, enthusiasm, outward signs, significant changes, sacrifice, commitment, following, radical behavior, changing your life, repentance(their definition), surrender, dying to self, intimacy etc. it takes to BE SAVED? I really wish they’d spell it out instead of herding the sheep around and around into a tighter and tighter circle.

    I guess I’m not as calm in some of these situations, it angers me that they lie against the truth. Bottom line, like he says, count the cost Mr. Idleman. How much cost? How much? How long? Did you make it? Or do you have to wait to see? You make God a liar…(1 Jn 5:9-13)

    Maybe Idleman should be honest. If he has not put 100% into it he has failed. God does not grade on a curve. All or nothing Kyle. Notice how many comments he made about knowledge? That is just the enemy’s way of attacking the Word’s sanctifying power in us (Jn. 17:17) and trying to take away believer’s weapons and weakening their shield of faith. They are the one that is a man-centered doctrine, and the god of this age has them blinded. Point people to Christ. Point people to His Word. Apart from Christ they can do nothing, and they need to abide in His Word.

    Idleman says: “One of the reasons our churches can become fan factories is that we have separated the message of “believe” from the message “follow.””(p. 32)

    To this comment, I’d like to respond to him, is there are many reasons our churches are not doing well. Because they do not have many overcomers in them. (believers-1 John 5:4-5) And the believers that are in the different churches, some are misled and not fed properly with the Word at the least, and worse they are made merchandise of by others, or savaged by the wolves in many cases. They are starving for the Word, praying for those who know them, to feed His sheep.

    Thanks Jim for allowing me to speak.

  22. jimfloyd12 says:

    You are welcome Holly.

    I agree. I have been in churches where the people were starving yet had come to accept that it was normal. The rest were unsaved and being led around by Lordship type gospels and fruit inspection. The teaching tends to be dry and boring in these places. I was lucky to have attended the Grace Conference this year in Illinois and let me tell you. There was great joy there and nothing was boring to me! The truth of God is great indeed when it is pure and separated from the errors of Calvinism etc and loosened from the errors of law keeping bondage. I just wonder when people will wake up and realize the danger around them.

    Thanks for speak up on this.

    Jim F

  23. mary says:

    Hi guys,
    have been reading the book i never knew you pretty scary. i have often wondered who were the people jesus was talking to in matthew 7.21 for me that has always been a sobering scripture. in this book the author states that those who mock us free gracers and the easy believism are not really saved. as i said to a friend of mine this new revelation for me as a free gracer i feel am i only just truly born again now and was not. he uses the term false evangelicals u wonder does this apply to calvanists arminism and lordship salvationists. i felt that was for the religious people mainly the catholics and the orthodox. the pentecostals and charasmatics as the pentecostals get more into casting out demons some russian orthodx do too. but i never thought it would apply to the false evangelicals with all their false plans of salvation. i am listening to mike gendron and some of the calvanists and i’ll tell u what i see happening here as i said to a friend. the calvanists are all saying now that they were false converts as they were believing in the free grace gospel and we meaning me and others i know believe we could have not truly have been saved because we were under the lordship salvation gospel. the thing that really frightens me is i hope we are right as this is our souls at stake here. the catholics are right when they say everyone interprets the bible differently even a bahai woman said that to me. oh i hope we are interpreting this gospel correctly how satan has deceived the masses. are we the ones that jesus said few find it.

    how can we know the truth when we say the holy spirit leads us into all truth when evangelicals can’t even agree on what the gospel is. all claim they have it right.
    i went to a catholic funeral the other day they say that u can’t have assurance then in the next breath they say she is in heaven now. they don’t say purgatory i’m not sure the priests believe in purgty any more how confusing. all false plans of salvation catholic and what the whole of the evangelical churches including frankin and billy graham all have false gospels will they face the great white throne judgement or are they just in error now and some time ago they believed and where persuaded into another gospel which is no gospel.

  24. jimfloyd12 says:

    Good thoughts there Mary. I will read the book by Bowen and comment more fully on all of this when I get a few spare moments.

    Thanks,

    Jim F

  25. hollysgarcia says:

    Mary, we can do more than hope we are right. His Word is written so that we might know we have eternal life through believing in His name. (Jn 20:31; I John 5:13) I don’t know which one of the ones that are adding to the gospel ever believed. Their gospel has no assurance. I pray He will continue to chastise them and bring them back to a correct understanding. It’s tragic so many will be mislead through their lies regarding the truth.

    For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 1 Thess 1:5

  26. jimfloyd12 says:

    Mary, I have had a chance to read through certain portions of the book by Bowen. He makes good points and found him to be Biblical as far as the parts that I read. “False evangelical” can refer to just about anyone that teaches a false gospel. Yes, Calvinists and Arminians basically both have false gospels.

    I don’t know if Billy Graham or his son were ever saved but they do teach a false method of salvation. That is not too re-assuring but it doesn’t matter what I think. What matters is what the Bible says about salvation. Yes, we can know as Holly said. We can be sure of our salvation because we stand firm on the foundation of the Word of God and what it says. Please check out my doctrinal statement and the stand alone page Salvation for Sinners.

    God Bless,

    Jim F

  27. jimfloyd12 says:

    Mary, all

    Please consider the verses here at this link. Faith is the only way to receive salvation and we have at least 150 verses here to stand on!

    http://expreacherman.com/believers-justification/

    God Bless,

    Jim F

  28. tim says:

    I like the book. The problem arises when we make belief nothing more than an intellectual agreement. What does it take to be a believer? Belief, I agree, but it is a belief that leads toward a loving relationship. A loving relationship has requirements. Try telling your wife that you simply love her in thought… I think the response would be, “If you love me it would naturally show in how you live your life.” So it is with Jesus, like it or not. “If any man will come after me let him deny himself (okay that is something I have to do), take up his cross ( that is something I have to do) and follow (that is something I have to do) me.”

  29. jimfloyd12 says:

    Tim,

    Belief of the gospel is to trust Christ fully for salvation. This does not have to do with our relationship. Upon belief we are born again. The positional relationship of son of God is established once and for all at that point. The ongoing walk with Him or lack there of takes place after conversion. A loving relationship does have requirements but don’t confuse that with requirements for salvation. Sure, to be a devoted follower you should and would need to take up your cross so to speak but that pertains to sanctification not justification or the new birth. Mixing it in with conversion is why I believe so many like Kyle Idleman actually over complicate and distort the gospel into a false gospel. It is a bad mistake to do that.

    Regards,

    Jim F

  30. jimfloyd12 says:

    All,

    Please also take time to check the newly added free grace sermons and conference sessions:

    https://standforthefaith.wordpress.com/grace-sermon-audio/

    Jim F

  31. Rick says:

    Clearly the point has been missed here! Noone has to make Jesus Lord; He already is. What Kyle is stating; and he is biblically correct, is held against the notion of “easy believism” prevalent in the Church today. The gate discussed by Jesus in Matther 7 is narrow; not Kyle’s words but Jesus’ own words; this is because He is not looking for “lukewarm” Christians but those whose lives are being transformed by following HIm; taking up the cross daily. This is not a “works: salvation at all but an outpouring of faith and devotion that following Christ as He intended will produce in the Christian. We work because HE has already worked in us to bring Him glory and honor. Kyle hits it right on the mark here.

  32. jimfloyd12 says:

    Actually he is way off. The narrow path / gate is not a narrow path of works but one way – by grace through faith in Christ alone. Trying to add in terms of discipleship does not fix an easy believism problem. It just creates it’s own problem this just as bad because it misses the point entirely and adds to the condition of receiving the free gift that is eternal salvation.

  33. hollysgarcia says:

    Paul Washer does the same thing as Idleman, defines the Narrow Gate/way as works, not even understand Old Testament prophecy and that Jesus is the Gate of Righteousness, the Cornerstone. Also shown to us in John 10 and John 14:6 of course. What Idleman has done, whether trying to create more faithful disciples, he has actually broadened the way. Jesus is identified as both the Gate of the Lord and the Stone which the builders rejected.

    THIS IS THE GATE:

    Open to me the gates of righteousness;
    I will go through them,
    And I will praise the Lord.
    This is the gate of the Lord,
    Through which the righteous shall enter.
    I will praise You,
    For You have answered me,
    And have become my salvation.
    The stone which the builders rejected
    Has become the chief cornerstone.
    This was the Lord’s doing;
    It is marvelous in our eyes.
    Psalm 118:19-23

  34. Shirley says:

    So far I have just read part 1 and this far in the comments. Jim, you said above, “What matters is what the Bible says about salvation.” Considering that both sides appear to be accusing the other side of not understanding the Bible correctly, I would say, “What matters is what Jesus says to me at the judgment.” Sometimes I think, “What difference does it make if we call the Bible inerrant, if nobody can agree on what it’s saying?”

  35. Shirley says:

    Jim, it’s me again, reading farther down on the page.(comment #2). When you call Kyle’s “gospel” a “false gospel” are you saying that people who receive Christ after talking to him aren’t really born again?

  36. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Shirley,

    What the Bible says does indeed matter and we have to test all things through the Word to see if they are so. What I am saying is that we need to be assured now of what we believe. Many people that wait to meet their Savior will find out they were wrong and by then it will be too late. I don’t want that for anyone. This is partly why I feel it is so important to shed light on works gospels.

    Well, thankfully the Bible is inerrant because people aren’t. If you keep studying the Holy Spirit will keep bearing witness to the truth. Each person is responsible before God to decide what they believe based on His truth. It for sure is not small matter and definitely not one that we can just punt on and say that everyone has a small piece of the truth.

    Jim F

  37. jimfloyd12 says:

    Shirley,

    No, I am not saying that but there must be faith in Christ alone to save. Eph 2:8, Act 16:31.

    Jim F

  38. Kara says:

    We need more people like Idleman too encourage us “believers” to want to be on fire for Christ! There are already too many “carnal” Christians in America!

  39. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Kara,

    The problem is not primarily too many carnal Christians. The problem is that too many churches are preaching false gospels. Lordship salvation also fails as a means of sanctification because any sin could mean that the person wasn’t really genuine in their conversion. If people constantly check themselves by “inspecting” their own fruit to see if they are saved then are they really trusting Christ alone?

    If you want less carnal Christians then teach the correct gospel and then correct doctrine in discipleship after conversion. The answer is never Lordship salvation.

    Jim F

  40. Ron Sloan says:

    Jim,

    I invite your response to Rom. 10:9. “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Did Paul fall into the error of Lordship Salvation here?

    Thanks,
    Ron

  41. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks for stopping by Ron.

    Rom 10:9 is often misused especially in regards to confession and “making Christ Lord”. Paul indeed did not fall into Lordship error. He is repeatedly clear that justification is received through faith. The confession and salvation here refers not to eternal salvation but to victory (over sin) and deliverance in this life. If you follow down through the passage you will see more clarification on faith being the way to receive eternal life.

    Jim F

  42. Mary says:

    Hi Daniel, I am in australia too can we connect, which state are you in, we can’t find free grace churches here, hard to find like minded christians

  43. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ron,

    Here is a quote from Larry Moyer on this topic.

    “Romans 10:9-10 is many times used to support the misconception that if you don’t confess Christ publicly, you can’t be saved. We read “ … that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” Above all else, it’s worth noting that the word righteousness in Romans 10:10 is a noun form of the verb translated “justify.” Romans 5:1 reads, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Justified here means “to be declared righteous.” Therefore, the meaning of the first part of Romans 10:10 is, “ … with the heart man believes and is justified before God.” But confession in Romans 10:9-10 is a part of what’s necessary to live a victorious Christian life. The context is arguing that one has to be willing to confess Him publicly in order to triumph over sin…”

    Jim F

  44. hollysgarcia says:

    Ron, if I may, I’d like to explain how I see from His Word, the section you speak of “confess the Lord Jesus” (Jesus AS Lord is not in the original or even ‘is’)

    What do we have to confess/believe in our heart about Jesus in order to be saved?

    Lord – kyrios = God, the Messiah
    Jesus – Iesous = Jehovah is salvation

    Are we confessing who He is? On whom we have believed? Or are we making it into something it is not?

    I know on whom I have believed. Do you believe that He is who He said He is? That is what I believe this speaks to. If not, we will die in our sins. If what we should do is submit to Him completely, make Him Lord, etc. might Jesus have let us know when He was asked? If the free gift is all by Him, (see Romans 5), all by what He did, what can we do in order to receive it?

    Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:28-29

    Notice Jesus establishes WHO He is and what they must do to avoid dying in their sins.

    Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:21-24

  45. Shirley says:

    What do YOU mean when YOU say “teach the correct doctrine in discipleship after conversion?” How does your teaching differ from Kyle’s teaching of “discipleship after conversion?”

  46. Shirley says:

    It’s a good thing I’m already a Christian, because if I found this website to get more information on Kyle’s book (which is how I found it) and I wasn’t a Christian I would be throwing up my hands in frustration. It seems like Ron, Jim, and Holly can’t even agree on “basic Christianity.” Pretend you are not a Christian for 5-10 minutes and read the comments and maybe you’ll see what I’m talking about. I don’t see how this kind of discussion furthers the cause of Christ. “OMG what if I ‘fall into the error of Lordship Salvation?’ Maybe I better just forget about Jesus and Christianity.”

  47. jimfloyd12 says:

    Shirley,

    A believer needs to be discipled after conversion. This ought to involve preferably those in a local church or at least a solid more mature believer. The biggest difference between my position and Idleman’s is that he places discipleship (the commitment to it) into the realm of something needed for salvation.

    Believers ought to be disciples of Christ and part of this includes one on one learning and group learning. The Holy Spirit also teaches believers through the Word.

  48. jimfloyd12 says:

    Shirley,

    Holly and I basically agree. I am not 100 percent sure where Ron was going with that question. Just be sure that salvation is received through faith.

    Also, I encourage all that are unbelievers, those who think they may be unbelievers, and those caught up in and type of works salvation (including Lordship salvation) to go to my stand alone page concerning Salvation for Sinners.

    I detect your mocking tone but this is no small matter. Salvation is the most important issue any person must deal with. Either we believe the gospel and trust Christ alone for salvation from the penalty of sin or we reject. Those that have decided to go the works route have decided to reject. That is a big deal and no laughing matter.

    You may have come here looking for info on the book but my intentioned was to warn those unsuspecting of it’s errors. The proof is in the Word itself.

  49. Ryan says:

    Matthew 7:16-21 sums up Lordship salvation.
    Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    It’s simple guys, because of the work of the cross, the direction of ones life should look different. If a person who claimed the name of Christ, but has shown no fruit/lives in contradiction to the WORD makes you wonder if maybe they aren’t truly saved…..it’s not perfection but direction of ones life. Paul rebukes the Corinthians.

    I know this is a hot button for many, and perhaps I may come off as unloving but I truly am grieved for the lost….as a church we must practice Church discipline. This means all four stages and It starts with care-fronting your brother who is living I open disregard to God’s Word. If they repent this shows direction and we are done with the issue. God set the standard and that’s what LS really is about. I’m not judging if your saved, but holding you accountable in love. I’m a wicked sinner who counts on my brothers in the Lord to help hold me accountable.

    2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Ryan

  50. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan, that is the typical LS view but it is false. Those who were saying “Lord, Lord” were relying on their works. Their excuse was, look at what we have done. Have we not done this and have we not done that etc. The fact of the matter is that they never simply trust Christ alone to save. The direction of a person’s life is very common but it is not correct. There is no guarantee how much a believer will show fruit. Fruit is a result of faithfulness not faith itself. There is no ratio by which toquantify a supposed “genuine” believer. The only solid proof is who the person trusts for salvation.

    Paul rebuking the Corinthian believers actually proves my point. Why did he need to get on them about their behavior if it was automatic that theywould have a pronounced lifestyle change? Many of the believers Paul encountered were carnal and needed correction often. A Lordship proponent today might label such people as unsaved based on their works. But notice that Paul did not! Instead he corrected them and taught them.

  51. hollysgarcia says:

    Shirley, I didn’t know what Ron stated or what he believes to agree or disagree with Him. I actually do read the comments, I appreciate Jim’s kind demeanor in laying out the Word, along with sound speech that cannot be condemned. I actually agree with Jim on the gospel, and on most anything I’ve seen him write, one thing I’ve noticed is he’s always open to correction with His Word, and uses His Word to correct, are you?

    The Word tells us to mark and avoid these teachers (Rom 16:17-18) and call an accursed gospel (Gal 1) what it is, because as Jim says, this is no laughing matter, a matter of life and death. No matter how frustrated, I’d never joke about forgetting Jesus… Be sure you have relied completely on His free gift of grace, and by all means grow in it as we all want to do with His help and by the washing in the water by the Word. Sanctify yourself in the truth, not men’s words.

    I say this in all love Shirley, and pray you will seek understanding through His Word and not the books of men. Make sure you understand the gospel found in 1 Cor 15. Read through the book of John again, refresh yourself in the gospel. Talk to Him as you do. Study to show yourslef approved unto Him so you will not be ashamed… In His love to you…

  52. hollysgarcia says:

    I am not sure if Ryan is saying that passage proves the false doctrine of Lordship teaching )which ironically they frequently use to accuse believers) or if he is saying it proves the doctrine is somehow a good one…. A little confused by his wording…

    Our friend John said at one time: “The misuse of Matthew 7 glosses right over the fact that Jesus never challenges these peoples’ claims of good works.”

    In an article I had written about Lordship doctrine teachers, here are some things I noted about Matt 7:15-21

    ►Inwardly they are ravening wolves. (you cannot see to judge inwardly. We are not to judge by the appearance anyways)

    ►Outwardly they look like sheep and do many wonderful works. (sounds like it would appear like good fruit)

    Please consider answering these questions regarding the passage in Matthew 7:15-21.

    Remember who is being spoken of; False Prophets a.k.a. ravening wolves.

    1. What do you see to be the work God tells us to do vs. the wonderful works they justified themselves by? What work can we do for salvation? (Romans 4:5, Romans 11:6)

    ►Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:28-29

    2. What do you see to be the will of the Father spoken of in Matt. 7?

    ►And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-40

    3. Note that He NEVER KNEW them. (Look up John 10:14) They were never His in the first place.

    4. Sadly, they call Him Lord, Lord… (Lordship teachers certainly do that. These same teachers accuse the sheep falsely, saying we don’t want to submit to His Lordship. Not true, we just do not submit to their false definition of what it means)

    5. Ask yourself, who did these false prophets in Matt 7 glory in? Is it about what God is doing in their life? Or about how radical a disciple they are? Or what their wonderful works are? 1 Cor 1:30-31

    6. What makes one righteous? Who are the unrighteous? Or workers of Lawlessness? Who is our righteousness? Doesn’t it seem these false prophets are seeking to establish their own righteousness? Rom 10:3-4

  53. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan,

    I am not going to post really long explanations of your LS views but I am willing to mention some of it so that people understand the difference.

    You said,

    “We are not that different as LS people from no LS people. We believe in the Christ alone. But we also are painfully aware that many false teacher present a false Christ.”

    (Our views are basically antithetical as both cannot be true. Sure there are false teacher that present a false Christ but what about false methods of obtaining eternal life?)

    “The pattern Of one’s life is different after conversion this is the point I’m making with 1co 6.”

    (That isn’t really what that is talking about. Paul has to tell them to flee fornication… because many of them were involved in it as SAVED people, not because some of them were proving to never have been saved in the first place.)

    “Also the need for church discipline is a must.”

    (No disagreement there but what does that have to do with Lordship salvation?)

    “If a person buys into the fact of I repeated some words or walked the isle I’m fine no matter what I do.”

    (Right but that isn’t salvation. You have to actually trust Christ as Savior, not repeat words or walk an isle.)

    “They view Christ as insurance. Truth be told if a person believes/confesses with in their heart they are different.”

    (Actually those holding the LS view trust their works as insurance. The difference is that there is regeneration – the new man. But that doesn’t guarantee behavior change in of itself, there is still the old man. I can be born to my eathly Father and not love Him like I ought. I have to work at it. Thankfully as believers we have the Holy Spirit to guide us but the Spirit does not control us like puppets either. We need to be yielding as believers to the truth the Spirit reveals from the Word.)

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11
    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you:but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    (So. It is no mystery that one must be born again. The new man (nature) does not sin, but the old one still does. These verses are saying to these believers: look, you were just like these people so don’t act like them now. It is not saying a person that ever does any of these things is not saved. It is not even saying that a person that practices these things (does them in a habit pattern) are not saved. More on that later. The fact of the matter is that Paul declares that they are justified.

    1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.)

    ( People who are characterized by these iniquities are not saved (1 Cor. 6:10).

    (That is not the way to look at it for believers because there is no sin period that they can be characterized by. Justification means that when God looks at them he sees Christ’s righteousness. They have be permanently declared not guilty because of Christ their Savior. His blood covers all of their sin – past , present, and future. Justified people however can still technically do any sin even in a habit pattern but they should not. Paul teaches them this repeatedly.)

    “See 1 John 3:9–10. While believers can and do commit these sins, they do not characterize them as an unbroken life pattern. When they do, it demonstrates that the person is not in God’s kingdom.”

    (False. Actually the standard is not a lack of a pattern of sin but NO sin. There can’t be any. It must be all under the blood of Christ and the new man itself commits no sin. When we sin as believers we do it through the old man of the flesh in disobedience to the Spirit. See the video below.)

    True believers who do sin, resent that sin and seek to gain the victory over it (cf. Rom. 7:14–25).

    (Not always and not always right away. A person can harden themselves and meet the Lord first. The Lord is extremely patient and loving with His children but it is not beyond the possibility for him to take disobedient sons home early. What happened to Annanias and Saphira?)

    1 Cor. 6:11 Though not all Christians have been guilty of all those particular sins, every Christian is equally an ex- sinner, since Christ came to save sinners (Matt. 9:13; Rom. 5:20). Some who used to have those patterns of sinful life were falling into those old sins again, and needed reminding that if they went all the way back to live as they used to, they were not going to inherit eternal salvation, because it would indicate that they never were saved (2Cor. 5:17).

    (That is categorically false. It is anti grace. Ryan, you have demonstrated to me that you do not understand grace or justification. That saddens me but please consider the messages by Dr Ralph “Yankee” Arnold. He addresses all these points and more. My challenge to you is to listen to some of these messages and think about trusting Christ alone to save you from the penalty of sin – no works.)

    Jim F

  54. jimfloyd12 says:

    Yes, Holly. They were trying to establish their own righteousness and it didn’t work. The same goes for any addition of works to the gospel. If it is before conversion to merit eternal or after conversion to earn it, it is still a false message and doesn’t save. Yes, the fruits we can judge false prophets by is what they are teaching. If it is the fruit of a works gospel then we know they are false.

  55. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan, all

    Please listen to some of these messages when you have time. They are clear and powerfully Biblical.

    Jim F

  56. Ryan says:

    Jim,
    Maybe I’m not explain myself well enough. I’m what is commonly labeled a Lordship Salvationist. Our local church body for the most part would be called this as well. We stress the 5 Solas of the reformation, just like most of the people on here probably do. We believe that if a person is truly born again, has actually put his or her faith in Christ alone, then they are different. We know we still sin and always pray for others to care front is when we are blind to our sin. We know that the Christian life is not a linear jurney, but with peaks and vallies. We don’t attest to a sin free life, we don’t work for our salvation we trust Christ. Many wrongly call us works based theologians but truth be told, Martin Luther said it best when Christ called believers to repent it was not just once, but to a life of repentance. It’s a pattern of life if Christ is who He says He is and I follow Him why would there not be a decreasing sin pattern in my life. As we grow we recognize sin more and more and turn from it. It’s not perfection but direction. I’m assuming you’ll agree with these statements. I just want people to realize there is a broad spectrum of “LS” people. We are not heretical…we love Christ and want to live a life that is based on the Word, nothing else. As I’ve grown and studied my view has changed greatly on what salvation is. I use to think wrongly that the simple repartition of the prayer was enough, that walking the isle did it. I once viewed myself as a believer, because I did the activities I had the insurance policy…. Thankfully God opened my eyes to my wrong view and changed my heart. I count that day as my true trusting in Christ. The day I recognized my sin nature and had a desire to turn from it. I’m not perfect and I know a can’t save myselfe.

    With Christ all things are possible
    Ryan

  57. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan,

    I understood exactly what your position was but thanks for the clarification for those reading. Most Lordship Salvationists I know have a different definition of trust/faith. We both say we trust the Lord for salvation but what does that mean? I am saying that when I trust Christ as my Savior, I am believing that Christ died and rose again for my sin and that I am saved based on Christ. That is it. Upon conversion I received the new man. Lordship proponents usually tell me that faith means more than just belief or trust. For them it means things like: willingness to obey, commitment to a new way, willingness to turn from sin, willingness to follow Christ in discipleship etc. I agree that not all LS proponents are exactly the same in every minute detail but the basic concept is a works oriented concept nonetheless. Some focus on the life lived after conversion. They’ll say they trust Christ but they’ll say they are unsure about a person that lives in sin. There is a big problem there. See, how can you say you are trusting Christ on one hand to save if you are also looking at your works on the other hand to really be sure?!

    Please at least listen to the second message from Yankee Arnold on I John 3:9. Maybe what you need is good dose of clear Biblical free grace preaching. It just may be a breath of fresh air for you. It may even help you to see the gospel and grace more clearly.

    You said,

    “We believe that if a person is truly born again, has actually put his or her faith in Christ alone, then they are different.”

    (Let’s be clear. The old man stays the same but the new man is born which does not sin. I know some LS people hold to one nature-ism. Not sure if you do, but I certainly do not.)

    “It’s a pattern of life if Christ is who He says He is and I follow Him why would there not be a decreasing sin pattern in my life.”

    (There would be a decreasing sin pattern IF you follow Him. The catch is that there is not a guarantee of how perfectly a believer WILL follow him. Saved people fail in discipleship areas all the time. Believers have both the new and old man. We can obey one or the other at any time. We can feed one and neglect the other reaping blessing or chastisement and loss of future rewards / blessings. There is a big difference between evidence of faithfulness and evidence of salvation. I can demonstrate to others in testimony that I love God by obedience but He alone proves my salvation.)

    Let me ask it to you this way. How do you KNOW that you are saved?

    Jim F

  58. Ryan says:

    Jim,
    You asked how do I know I’m saved: Christ’s death purchased eternal salvation; the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone.
    Christians can and do sin. Sometimes horribly, but thank God for helping me recognize my sin nature, and the desire He placed in me to be a repentant repenter.

    I did watch your youtube clips, I’m assuming he’s an IFB pastor….is that correct? It may surprise you, but I actually attend a fundamental church.

  59. jimfloyd12 says:

    He is not at a Baptist church but probably wouldn’t deny any of the baptist distinctives. Many many IFB churches are Lordship.

  60. johninnc says:

    Ryan, I would ask you to consider one of the Apostle Paul’s early colleagues in his ministry. The man’s name was Demas, and I see him mentioned three times:

    Colossians 4:14: Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

    Philemon 1:24: Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.

    2 Timothy 4:10: For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

    Was Demas a “true believer”? I think so. But, would you say “not perfection, but direction”? There is no mention of Demas ever coming back.

    Now, what about the second soil in the parable of the Sower:

    Luke 8:13: They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

    The Bible says they are believers. Believers have eternal life the moment they believe. It can never be lost or forfeited. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit. But, they fall away. Not perfection, but direction? There is no mention of these people ever coming back.

    What about the prodigal son?

    Luke 15:13: And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

    What if he had died in the pig pen? What was his DIRECTION when he left his father for riotous living? What about “not perfection, but direction”?

    Ryan, your mantra of “not perfection, but direction” has no Biblical basis.

    What about this:

    Luke 18:11: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

    Let’s do a modern LS translation: “God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are. I thank thee that, even though I have not attained perfection, that my direction has changed. I thank thee that I am not like those whose direction does not appear to have changed.”

  61. Ryan says:

    It’s interesting how you have decided to compair me to a Pharisee. We teach nothing but the any Faith alone, Grace alone and Christ alone. We do not hold to the notion of do do do, but the fact it was done at the Cross of Christ. At the heart of the matter is the heart. You can not seperate putting your faith/trust in Christ and conversion. The modern thought of a canal Christian is a odds with scripture (2CO 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new). Do you honestly believe that all who make a profession of faith are doing it with genuine a heart. I’ve had people say I me if I just repeat this prayer will you leave ( yes I was a typical Baptist in the past). I have no way of knowing if they are truly repentant do you. If truly repentant than welcome to the kingdom. What’s it mean to be a Christian, can you seperate following Christ from it?
    Dealing with Luke 8:13, view it in light of 1Jn 2:19-27 and Heb 6:4-6 . These vs are about the false coverts who put Christ to open shame.
    I do not judge a persons salvation or position in Christ. I take their confession at face value. We lovingly welcome them into the the body of Christ, but we hold them accountable for their lives. At my local body we practice church discipline always. It’s not done out of pride but love for the individual( this simple fact is why most call me a Lordship Salvationist). I know of my sin…the log and splinters in my eye. I’m thankful for those in the Lord who help make me accountable when I’m blinded by my sin.
    Can show me in scripture an example of a person of faith who had no change. Mark 8:34-39 should ring true in a believers life.

  62. johninnc says:

    Ryan, I agree that believers SHOULD live for Christ! But, it is not automatic. Church discipline is Biblical, but has NOTHING to do with whether or not someone has eternal life. I agree that saying a prayer does not result in receiving eternal life. In fact, I am a staunch opponent of “salvation prayers”, because they are unbiblical.

    Ryan, you have decided that the folks referred to in Luke 8:13 are false converts. Based on what? Is the Bible not good enough for you? The Bible says they believed. In fact, this is the ONLY group (of the four soils) for which the Bible uses the term BELIEVE.

    Let me examine a couple more of your comments:

    You said: “The modern thought of a carnal Christian is a odds with scripture (2CO 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new).”

    My comment: Oh, really? What about 1 Corinthians 3:1-4:

    [1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    [2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    [3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
    [4] For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

    You said: “I have no way of knowing if they are truly repentant do you.”

    My comment: No. But, “repentant” in a salvation context, has nothing to do with turning from sin, or committing to turn from sin. That would make repentance a work. If I hear a profession of faith that is tainted by this heresy, that would be a “red flag” to me that the professing believer may not have actually understood the gospel message.

    You said: “Can show me in scripture an example of a person of faith who had no change. ”

    My comment: Ryan, I gave you one example of a person (Demas) who showed change for the worse, after initially following Christ. I gave you a second example of a group of people (second soil) who fell away. I gave you a third example (prodigal son) of someone who showed a change for the worse, and then came back. All three represent believers.

    1 Corinthians 3:15 talks about some believers who will have no good works that survive:

    “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

    Ryan, much of the New Testament was written to instruct Christians how to live. The Epistles were written, because believers don’t automatically do what they are supposed to.

    There is a good sermon excerpt on this matter, by Doctor Thomas Cucuzza, set forth below:

    “Now you might say “a saved person surely is going to live for the Lord, aren’t they?
    Not automatically. Not automatically. Just like you had the choice whether you were going to trust Christ, you have the choice whether you’re going to submit to Christ as a Christian. Not automatic. I got news for you friend. If it was automatic, the Bible would be a whole lot thinner than it is. You’d just need a one page job. How’s that for a handy, handy Bible. You know, forget the idea of this Bible with thousands of pages on it. All these people that make all these Bibles, they would just be frustrated to no end. You just put it on the front page of one page, you just “here’s how to be saved” And, OK you trust Christ as Savior, and there you are. Automatic. You’re on the assembly line of the Christian life now. You’re going to automatically do the right thing and say the right thing and not do the wrong thing. It’s just going to be automatic. You’re going to love everybody and you’re going to love everything that’s right and hate everything that’s wrong, and everything’s going to be perfect. Right?

    Well that’s not the way it is. See, it’s because we have a will that God, through the scriptures, reasons with us. And you know what? That takes space.”

    Ryan, I have no idea whether you have ever trusted in Christ alone. But, your words include some errant beliefs that are not consistent with belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    I would encourage you to read “The Gospel” by Ron Shea. I have linked it below:

    http://www.cleargospel.org/booklet.php?b_id=3

    Thanks. John

  63. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan, yes please read the gospel link that John provided.

    Also, could it be that many of us have answered these things from you before?

    http://expreacherman.com/2013/05/29/an-admitted-lordship-salvationist-visits-expreacherman-and-asks-questions/

  64. jimfloyd12 says:

    Plus, on that thread, Califgracer gave this response concerning 2 Cor 5:17. For some reason LS proponents think that this proves their change of life premise.

    “4. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold all things are become new.” When a person trusts Christ alone by grace alone through faith alone for salvation, yes, that person becomes a new creation in Christ with a new nature. But the old nature is still on the scene as well (see, for example, Paul’s admitted struggles with sin and the old sin nature in Romans 7). The believer should do good works for God (Ephesians 2:10), but, if he failed to do so, this failure would not prove that he was unsaved.”

    I guess can have someone confirm if you are the same commenter as the “Ryan” on that thread. Either way, let’s be clear that free grace theology and Lordship salvation are not close. They are two totally different views.

  65. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks John for that response to Ryan.

    Ryan,

    Let me mention some more things. You said, “What’s it mean to be a Christian, can you seperate following Christ from it?”

    Being a born again believer is one thing. Being a faithful believer is another. One is positional and actual while the other is potential and temporal. Believers have the foundation of being in Christ and having the new man but they do not always live in faithfulness. A person can fail to be obedient in discipleship or not even follow Christ obediently at all in discipleship. They will still be saved anyway because salvation is received by grace through faith regardless of any works before or after conversion. Otherwise salvation is not a free gift and it is not by grace.

    Repentance is a change of mind. So therefore a genuine heart (mind) is just something in someone that wants to trust Christ. When they do… they are saved. LS people make “genuine heart: into meaning that there must be brokeness, remorse, contrition, heart felt sorrow, deep longings to do right, etc etc. This however is not Biblical repentance at conversion. We are to simply change our minds and trust Christ as Savior.

    “Dealing with Luke 8:13, view it in light of 1Jn 2:19-27 and Heb 6:4-6 . These vs are about the false coverts who put Christ to open shame.”

    I Jn 2:19 is talking about anti-christs – not people that once believed.

    Heb 6:4-6 is talking about eternal security in one sense. Heb 6:1 says.. “let us go on unto perfection… this is talking about sanctification.

    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    This verse is saying that it is impossible for a saved person to be saved again. To say a saved person needs saving again is a bad testimony for that person and is a shame to God. But as shameful as it is, it does not result in loss of salvation. Neither does it prove they were never saved. It just proves they weren’t being faithful as they ought to have been and we falling to go on to more mature things. They were wallowing around in failure at the beginning of their spiritual growth.

    Jim F

  66. hollysgarcia says:

    Ryan, I do pray that somehow you might really read the answers given to you here prayerfully. That you might consider if you do know Him, if you ever believed that you totally needed Him to save you, and believed only He could, that you will think on who you are misleading. The lost will stay lost with your message. The saved can be rendered ineffective in preaching the gospel to a lost world, and in their own walk and fellowship with the Lord. It will be hindered as they seek to establish their own righteousness and are not walking by faith.

    It will not ever work.

    If you ever began in the Spirit, you cannot finish in the flesh, you will fail, there is no grading on the curve. And if you haven’t submitted to His righteousness, and you keep trying to contribute your own filthy rags of your own righteousness, you will be lost too. At the very least you have caused a young one to stumble (which is not something any of us should hope to do).

    I do not know how you can go against His Word in saying there are no carnal Christians, but John answered you already. His clear Word says otherwise. When you say “We”, you do realize it will only be ‘you’ standing in front of Him? “We teach nothing but the any Faith alone, Grace alone and Christ alone. We do not hold to the notion of do do do…” Funny, by what you said above, it does not sound like anything more than a reformed mantra, saying one thing and teaching quite another.

    Please just consider really searching in His Word for the gospel. Start with the book of John, I know you’ve heard it probably said to you before. But you sound like you have no clear idea of what the gospel really is. What it really means to us to receive the free gift of salvation. Free Ryan…re-read Romans 5 and pray on it if you will.

  67. Ryan says:

    I will reply to all of you in this one responce. I’m not the Ryan of the article you sent. All believers have fruit. Galatians 5:22-25
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    We don’t do this perfectly because we have flesh.
    I can agree with repent/repentance being a change of mind based on the Greek, but what have we changed our mind about? Two things, first who Christ is and secondly what seperated you from God. What causes this change? Nothing more than the truth of the Gospel. Salvation in Christ alone we agree on. Now the term carnal Christian is not mine but a term used regularly by multiple pastor teachers. This term is something associated with easy believism being peddled by many…. The idea of just repeat the prayer, walk the isle is contradictory to God’s perfect word. It says clearly one must believe. Now people who take Christ and treat Him like an insurance policy are not truly believing. There is a difference between head knowledge an heart knowledge.
    Romans 10:9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Salvation is conditional, It’s not just empty repetition of words. For this simple fact many of you call me a works based theologian, a Lordship Salvationist and even some of you may view me as a heretical hate monger. Truth be told you have a wrong view of what I believe as “LS”. I can’t see separating Christ into parts….this seems like modalism to me.

    I pray that this answers some of the question raised about what a Lordship person such as myself believes.

    Ryan

  68. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan, you said, “All believers have fruit. Galatians 5:22-25

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    We don’t do this perfectly because we have flesh.”

    (Notice however the contradiction. Verses 25 and 26 say:

    Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

    Fruit is a result of walking in the Spirit. This is different from simply having the Spirit. The believers
    here had to be admonished to walk in the Spirit though the Spirit was already present with them. Their
    fruit was not automatic just because they had believed unto eternal life and had the new man and
    indwelling Holy Spirit.

    The fact is that a person can know that they are saved the moment they believe. This is because they
    are trusting Christ for salvation and God says that all who do so are saved. If you can’t say this then the
    condition is works and the Bible says that is a false way of salvation. We can’t be relying on them in
    anyway to secure salvation. Relying on them for assurance of salvation is also detrimental and is
    counter productive in the Christian life and leads to legalism.)

    “I can agree with repent/repentance being a change of mind based on the Greek, but what have we changed our mind about? Two things, first who Christ is and secondly what seperated you from God. What causes this change? Nothing more than the truth of the Gospel. Salvation in Christ alone we agree on.”

    (I pretty much agree with this. But that is not the LS take on it.)

    “Now the term carnal Christian is not mine but a term used regularly by multiple pastor teachers. This term is something associated with easy believism being peddled by many…. The idea of just repeat the prayer, walk the isle is contradictory to God’s perfect word. It says clearly one must believe.”

    (Easy believism is a misnomer. For me, there really is not any importance to if conversion is easy or hard for a given person. The hardest thing for many is that the devil and others have twisted the truth in so many way that the truth of the gospel is clouded and easily missed. Some people will have a much harder time believing the truth because they have been so indoctrinated with the false. The Holy Spirit can reveal the truth of the Word to anyone though.

    Most often though this is not what people object to when they accuse others of easy believism. Usually the term is used in a deragotory way against those that lack one of the following things in their gospel presentations.

    1) turning from sins
    2) willingness to turn from sins
    3) remorse
    4) penitence
    5) pleading with God
    6) promises or commitments to follow in discipleship / service
    7) making Jesus Lord – submitting officially to His authority of rule over one’s life

    (There is in my view such thing as having people pray a prayer to accept Jesus (without saying really much about Him) to save them (without saying why they need saving). That is what I see as easy believism if anything. It is a non-descriptive cross-less type of false gospel.)

    “Now people who take Christ and treat Him like an insurance policy are not truly believing. There is a difference between head knowledge an heart knowledge.”

    (This is also a point of confusion for many. There really is no difference between head and heart knowledge in one sense. The “heart” is in the mind. The two can’t really be separated but people like to. I think it is a sloppy way of illustrating the difference between knowing a set of facts and believing they apply to me. Think of it this way. I can know about the Savior, hear the gospel preached yet not believe in Christ alone for my personal salvation. For many LS proponents, they don’t believe Christ’s atonement is enough. They have to show works in order to be authentic.)

    (Romans 10:9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Salvation is conditional, It’s not just empty repetition of words.”

    (The only condition to receive eternal life is to believe Christ died for you. Eph 2:8. The condition can never be a work or works. Salvation is not received by prayer but by faith. Calling upon the name of the Lord or public confession is for victory over sin in this life. But you can’t have that till you first believe. Look at the rest of that verse and passage.)

    “For this simple fact many of you call me a works based theologian, a Lordship Salvationist and even some of you may view me as a heretical hate monger.”

    (Ryan, your own words say that you are looking at works in a way to authenticate if someone is a genuine believer. Plus I highly doubt anyone thinks you a hate monger.)

    “Truth be told you have a wrong view of what I believe as “LS”. I can’t see separating Christ into parts….this seems like modalism to me.”

    (There is often a false dilema introduced by LS proponents and that is of the idea that one must submit to Christ as Lord. No free grace believer is saying that Christ is not Lord. What we are saying is that to obey the gospel is to believe it. To live the Christian life faithfully is obedience to the Lord in our ongoing christian walk. Failure in that does not disprove salvation because it was never conditioned upon our works in the first place. We are saved by grace and disciplined by grace in the Christian life.)

    Jim F

  69. hollysgarcia says:

    Ryan, I always find it interesting when someone who doesn’t see doctrine like me, somehow puts thoughts that are not there into my conversation (believing you are a hate monger), just not true.

    I won’t answer much since Jim pretty much answered you, but you sure glossed over the fact of something… You said:

    Now the term carnal Christian is not mine but a term used regularly by multiple pastor teachers. This term is something associated with easy believism being peddled by many….

    Yes, this is true that it is regularly used by multiple pastors and teachers (of the Lordship/Calvinist viewpoint).

    Yes it is true, that they (the Lordship/Calvinist and some Arminian pastors/teachers) use the word carnal carnality and associate it with easy believism and in addition lie against the truth of God’s Word (sorry if that sounds harsh) and say that there ‘are no such things as carnal Christians’ (JMac).

    However, what you have completely glossed over and not addressed is that the term does not belong to them either. The ‘term’ carnal is not yours as you said, on that you are so right, but it is God’s Word and those pastors/teachers might do well to take that into consideration (Is 66:2; Ps 50:16-17)

    Why do you ignore that carnal believers are in His Word as John mentioned above? And I brought up again? For that matter, why do all Lordship teachers seem to ignore His Word there?

    And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
    For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 1 Cor 3:1-4

    This is clear, these were believers, walking as men, in strife and envy, divisions, babes in Christ, but carnal….

    In Christ’s love, it does sound like you have the gospel right in what you said above, so I do hope you will keep digging in His Word, and don’t cast aside any of God’s Word for any man’s teaching. That passage above is pretty clear, as well as all the epistles chastening men who were doing fleshly things.

  70. Ryan says:

    Holly,
    I would like to start by apologizing, I did not mean to say you specifically view me as a hate monger. Having debated many people on multiple topics, I have been called this and also divisive. Truth be told there is no greater joy than to discus the Truth of Christ and His work on the cross. As we get ready to celebrate resurrection Sunday, I hope this message is received as one of love.
    Now let’s talk about the way I define terms based in the word of God, as I believe you’re doing as well.
    Salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). That is the consistent teaching of Scripture. Eternal life is indeed a free gift (Rom. 6:23). Salvation cannot be earned with good deeds or purchased with money. It has already been bought by Christ, who paid the ransom with His blood.
    fruit is the result of an inward conversion experience that is manifested in a change of heart attitude towards God(repentance). there will be some response out of a heart, a desire to be obedient to God. Truth be told the first act of obedience is confession of your need for the Savior. Note desire does not equal perfection.
    Works on the other hand can be tricky. There are two types of works as I see it in the bible. First, God centered and directed. You become more obedient as you grow and desire to do that which glorifies Him who has save you. Matthew 5:16
    Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Now as you clearly state we start on milk, but we do grow. Now that may be more evident in some but all will grow. The second kind of work is not glorifying to God. It is nothing more than an exercise in futility, to be seen as righteous among men. This second type of work has the wrong heart. I hate to say it by this person has an I problem. Now God can and does often use these for His glory but that’s not the intention of the worker.

    Help me Lord to always remember that without Your Grace I too am lost. I am a wretched sinner unable to save myself. I know Lord that I am a work in progress, but may my life reflect Your mercy always and forever!

    Amen

  71. hollysgarcia says:

    Ryan, I didn’t realize I had a comment waiting here.

    There is no apology necessary, and I am sorry some have called you names, it is not my experience with those I know, but it is my experience to be mocked, ridiculed and condescended to by Lordship doctrine adherents.

    You say, “we do grow”, and I don’t know how well some grow, but they are given instructions over and over in Scripture about all sorts of sin. We see that those who are carnal are disciplined and warned for a reason, and I’m assuming those who didn’t listen and experienced physical death wouldn’t be ‘growing’ by your definition (1 Cor 11:30). We cannot know what fruit of the Spirit a believer has, but you keep putting words in God’s mouth. No one here denies that works are beneficial to all and should be done (Titus 3:8). But you say, “Now that may be more evident in some but all will grow.

    I don’t find that in Scripture, I find they ‘should grow’.

    You once again did not acknowledge the clear Scripture seen in 1 Corinthians 3 brought up multiple times by more than one here, which clearly states there are carnal believers. Those carnal believers we should care about by washing their feet, by feeding His Sheep, and if need be, church discipline. Jesus prayed that all should be sanctified by His Word of truth. That prayer will be answered affirmatively.

    Can you state what the gospel is? And once you do, can you state the person has eternal life the minute they believe? If so, then He will finish the good work He completed. Do your part in loving Jesus and loving others by not adding to God’s Word your take on Scripture, and be sure that you understand the gospel of grace. It’s a matter of life and death for others if you have indeed understood the gospel, you are not correctly imparting now, by your backloading of the gospel.

    In His love to you, sincerely…

  72. Rachel Dalrymple says:

    Great review on the book. It saddens me deeply how Satan has corrupted the simplicity of the gospel. It is so hard to find a church in my area. I live in Akron, OH. So if anyone has any ideas, please let me know. I’m dying to be in a good kjv, simple gospel preaching church, bible preaching church that isn’t legalistic. I need the fellowship. God bless!!

  73. MARY says:

    Hi Rachael,,
    Welcome, we are all in the same boat, even if you do find one, the people in their will all be mixed up in their doctrine and its very hard to find like minded fellowship, you will spend most of yr time correcting and arguing with them.. This is the cry of so many, I have given up looking for a good church, as we are in the midst of the apostasy and it will grow worse in the days to come. Hang around here and ex preacherman and I’m sure god will give you some like minded christians, those are very hard to find too. I am in Australia, and we have no free grace churches, its all mixed in with grace and works unfortunately. I would recommend listening to Ralp Arnold Yankee, love his sermons. He preaches the gospel with clarity, his teachings are very uplifting.

    God Bless
    Mary

  74. hollysgarcia says:

    Yes Rachel, I agree with Mary, I like Ralph Yankee Arnold, you can find him on youtube, but if you go to his site, which is Calvary in Tampa, I also like Dr. Hank Lindstrom, you can find him on the same site, he is deceased but was Yankee’s predecessor. Tom Cucuzza, northlandchurch.com I think you will like very much and James Scudder is one I think Jim (standforthefaith.com – right here) likes, as well as Robert Lightner, which you can find over on Scofield.com. I also like Paul Benware there, you can find audio files there I believe.

    Glad you are here too Rachel, God bless your day!

  75. jimfloyd12 says:

    Rachel,

    I am glad to hear your story. I am not familiar with churches in that area. I looked at a few sites and their doctrinal statements but nothing looked like a clear cut winner. You would simply have to investigate them in person. Some I wouldn’t go to at all.

    You will find fellowship online here and over at expreacherman. I do agree that Dr Arnold, Dr Lindstrom and Dr Cuccuza are great to listen to. As for fellowship in person, I’ve found that many do get that through starting small women’s or men’s Bible studies.

    Thanks Mary and Holly for welcoming Rachel.

    Jim F

  76. Cindy says:

    Hello Alan,
    I have been a member of Southeast Christian Church since 2004, however I received training in righteousness in Houston Texas 2011-2013 at the College of Biblical Studies-Houston. There I learned the truth, when I came back to Louisville 2014, I was dismayed to uncover all this controversy about the only church I have ever placed a membership in. The LORD allowed me too see the truth, now to answer your question. They believe in the sinners prayer, and immersion in water, after that they are declared before the congregation “I now baptize you into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” is the way the rhetoric goes. They celebrate the baptisms again once a year, as an annual drive so to speak, this usually kicks off momentum weekend, where the predominate message is money (it is a large church, 23,000, 4 satellite campuses, 5th currently under construction, and many church plants). The immersion is the point of salvation in their beliefs.

  77. Terrence Kuehn says:

    Matthew 16:24-26

    English Standard Version (ESV)
    Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus

    24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?

  78. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Terrence, what do you think those verses mean?

  79. jason brogan says:

    Jim,
    I know this is an old discussion but I just found it today. I just want to add something. Belief is all that is essential to being saved, we all have to agree to that. Also however, if someone truly believes we will see a change in there lives. Belief is essential but belief brings change. A lot of people say they believe are they all going to heaven because they SAY they believe? No, any sane person will agree with that. The Bible says that we know a tree by the fruit that it bears. If someone says they believe but no change takes place what fruit are they bearing?

  80. jason brogan says:

    Reading this thread, I am seeing hints of Gnosticism. “( Actually the standard is not a lack of a pattern of sin but NO sin. There can’t be any. It must be all under the blood of Christ and the new man itself commits no sin. When we sin as believers we do it through the old man of the flesh in disobedience to the Spirit. See the video below.)”. Am I reading this correctly? Once I am saved I will commit NO sin? I never have to repent of sin? When we sin as believers it is through the old man? The old man died when I gave my life to the Lord. I can’t still live through that man. The sin I commit as a saved person is still mine. I am not lost because of it and I still need to repent of it. Without repentance of sin how is there acknowledgement of sin? If I didn’t need forgiveness of sin why did Christ die on the cross? How can I be forgiven without acknowledging that I need forgiveness? How do I acknowledge needing forgiveness without asking for it?

  81. jason brogan says:

    Holly,
    I understand what you are saying but have a question for you. Are you encouraging Christians to live carnal lives? I am seeing a defense of the carnal life in this thread that maybe is not there but appears to me. Paul is not encouraging a carnal life in the passage you used. He is telling them that they are carnal and that is why he is sending them the letter, to get them beyond the carnal life that they are living. I am not saying you in particular but what I am reading throughout this thread is kind of scary stuff. Belief is all it takes to be saved (true). Carnal Christians are everywhere (again true). The scary part is the defense of carnal Christianity. Nowhere in the Bible is the carnal life defended. It is acknowledged but not defended. That is why we have the epistles; Paul is trying to help the congregations rid themselves of the carnal lifestyle. To believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior is the most dramatic change anyone can ever make in their lives. This change is a complete change. When it happens your mindset changes and therefore your lifestyle, not just your “belief” in Christ.

  82. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Jason, Will comment later. Thanks for stopping by. I believe I have the answers to your questions. Holly, can also respond after my comment. Thanks.

  83. jimfloyd12 says:

    Jason,

    Why does belief bring change (of behavior) automatically? What verses say that in your opinion? Everyone who believes in Christ alone for salvation is saved no matter what they “say” and no matter what others may think based on observable behavior.

    “The Bible says that we know a tree by the fruit that it bears.”

    Pastor Arnold addresses this in one of the sermons linked above. Please listen to “The Only Evidence You Must Have to Prove You are Saved” and the sermon below it on the passage in I John. Let me know once you have listened and considered these two messages.

    Basically the standard to enter heaven is perfection. This is only possible for people if Christ’s perfect righteousness is imputed to them by grace through faith. The doctrine of justification means we as believers are declared eternally not guilty before God the very moment we believe the gospel. So in His sight we are always righteous. This does not however mean that we always act righteously like we ought.

    Jim F

  84. jimfloyd12 says:

    Jason,

    You said, “Am I reading this correctly? Once I am saved I will commit NO sin?”

    (My response: No, what I said was that the NEW man does not sin but we still have the OLD man with us. If and when you commit sin as a believer it is not done out of the new man but the old. We do not teach a “one nature” position. The sin nature is not eradicated upon conversion.)

    “I never have to repent of sin? When we sin as believers it is through the old man? The old man died when I gave my life to the Lord. I can’t still live through that man.”

    (My response: Yes, you can live through that old man! Paul did the very thing. (Rom 7) He also taught believers (already saved people) to put off the old man and put on the new. (Eph and other places) Why is this necessary if the old man was completely done away with upon conversion? Also, if you can’t live through that man then you would never sin once. We don’t give our life to the Lord for salvation, we trust in Christ finished work.)

    “The sin I commit as a saved person is still mine. I am not lost because of it and I still need to repent of it.”

    (My response: Yes a sin committed by a saved person is still theirs but it is under the blood of Christ and can never condemn that person. It is an offense to God in context of our personal ongoing fellowship with Him but not something that jeopardizes our eternal standing. It does have the ability to affect rewards at the Bema seat judgement. I John 1:9 is a good verse to look to. We should acknowledge our sin to God and be mindful of our closeness of fellowship with Him.)

    “Without repentance of sin how is there acknowledgement of sin? If I didn’t need forgiveness of sin why did Christ die on the cross? How can I be forgiven without acknowledging that I need forgiveness? How do I acknowledge needing forgiveness without asking for it?”

    (My reponse: Let’s slow down a bit and consider two different things. One being repentance at conversion. This is synonymous with faith. If you believe the gospel then it implies that you changed your mind in relation to what you believed prior. We do not have to ask for forgiveness in order to be saved eternally. The offer of salvation is already being extended to those who will accept it by faith. The second thing to consider is sin in the life of a believer. We are to acknowledge (agree with God about) our sin. Christ did indeed die on the cross so he could forgive your sin but this is accomplished when you believe… not when you “ask for forgiveness”.)

    Jim F

    Btw, what Gnosticism? (Gnosticism is an unbiblical heresy.)

  85. jimfloyd12 says:

    Jason,

    No one here is saying anyone should live carnal lives. Instead we “should” walk in good works, glorify God, let our light so shine before men, love others unconditionally etc. We should do all of this out of love for our precious Savior. There is not a defense of carnality. (Rom 6)There is a difference between saying a person should obey and will obey.

    “Paul is trying to help the congregations rid themselves of the carnal lifestyle. ”

    (My response: This refutes your earlier point.)

    “To believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior is the most dramatic change anyone can ever make in their lives. This change is a complete change. When it happens your mindset changes and therefore your lifestyle, not just your “belief” in Christ.”

    (My comment: Says who because that is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that when a person receives salvation by faith that God regenerates them. It is a dramatic change that God makes in that the new man is created. Don’t mistake this for eradication of the old man. Yes the change is complete in that we are newly born of the Spirit but not complete in the sense of our progressive sanctification or glorification. It is only after glorification that the old man is gone. This happens for the believer upon physical death or the rapture. Mindset changes as you grow in sanctification and actually begin to apply the Word and walk in the new man. We are not instant super-christians at the very moment of conversion. Besides your view is flat out Lordship legalism in all reality and practicality. What if a person struggles in a sin habit? Is their salvation in doubt?)

    I’ll let Holly respond further if she desires.

    Jim F

  86. jimfloyd12 says:

    Jason, all

    I agree with the doctrinal statement at Calvary Community Church of Tampa. Please notice these sections:
    THE CHRISTIAN WALK

    We believe every true child of God possesses eternal life, is justified by faith, sanctified by God, sealed with the Holy Spirit, safe and secure for all eternity, and cannot lose his salvation. However, a Christian can, through sin, lose fellowship, joy, power, testimony, and rewards, and incur the Father’s chastisement. Relationship is eternal being established by the new birth; fellowship, however, is dependent upon obedience. God guarantees salvation, it is His gift to us. God guarantees reward and fruit to the obedient son. God guarantees chastening and loss of rewards to the disobedient son. (Rewards once earned, cannot be lost.) God does not cast out disobedient children, but in some cases, does take them home. He does not permit His children to live as they please without discipline and guidance (I Corinthians 3:11-17; 5:1-5; 11:30-32; Hebrews 12:5-11).

    I John 1:9 is not a verse for salvation but a precious promise to Christians for cleansing and forgiveness. I John 1:9, does not guarantee restoration of fellowship or restitution from physical damage caused by sin. It is heresy to teach that confession of sin produced spiritual fruit. Confession of sin places the Christian in a position where he can have fellowship with God. I John 1:6,7 teach that fellowship is the result of the Christian’s walk and not the result of the confession of sin.

    Spirituality, of which fellowship is part, comes from the Christian’s obedience to God (II Peter 1:5-8; Colossians 1:10; John 15:8; I John 1:6,7; Galatians 5:22).

    L. THE TWO NATURES OF THE BELIEVERS

    We believe a true child of God has two births: one of the flesh and the other of the Spirit. The flesh nature is neither good nor righteous. The Spiritual nature does not commit sin. This results in warfare between the Spirit and the flesh, which continues until physical death, or the return of the Lord. (The new birth cannot change in any way the flesh nature of man, but the flesh nature can be controlled and kept subdued by the new man.) All claims to the eradication of the old nature in this life are unscriptural (John 3:3-7; Romans 8:8; 7:15-25; Galatians 5:17; I John 3:9; 5:18; I Peter 1:23).
    Q. SEPARATION

    We believe that all of the saved should live in such a manner as not to bring reproach upon their Savior and Lord, and that separation from all religious apostasy, all worldly and sinful pleasures, practices, and associations is commanded of God (II Timothy 3:1-5; Romans 12:1,2; 14:13; I John 2:15-17; II John 9-11; II Corinthians 6:14-7:1).

    Go here to view the whole statement.
    http://yankeearnold.com/?page_id=21

    Jim F

  87. johninnc says:

    I think most false professions of faith in Christ come from people who believe false gospels of salvation by faith plus works.

  88. jimfloyd12 says:

    That’s true John because they are already operating on the faulty premise that works have anything to with it.

  89. jason brogan says:

    Jim,
    I never said change was instantaneous but change is inevitable. You are saved the moment Christ enters your life. The change takes the rest of your life. I don’t see the legalism in that. I read somewhere in this thread that saying you had to repent was works based(therefore legalism I guess) If repentance makes my faith works based then I guess I have to say that I believe in works because Romans 10:9 says “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Confessing Christ is repenting of my old lifestyle. To me to believe is to have the desire to repent and to have the desire to live a better life. That does not mean it is instantaneous but the desire is instantaneous. The response about the old man dying was in response to a comment about sin. The comment was that once we are saved that when we sin that is the flesh sinning and basically we are not responsible for that because now we are spiritual. I also said that I may be wrong in my interpretation of the comment I have not heard back yet from the person that made the comment. If I am correct in my interpretation then that is Gnosticism. That is a heresy that has followed Christianity through the ages that Satan continues to use to thwart the church in its work. To say that you are spiritual and therefore not responsible for the sin you commit is saying you don’t have to repent of the sin in your life. Why do we need Christ if we have no sin?

  90. Ryan says:

    Jason, I agree with you. It’s not a lack of sin, but a desire to turn from sin. I always like to say its direction, not perfection. As we grow in Christ, we should recognize sin more easily more frequently and repent. Speaking of Matthew 4:17, Martin Luther said, when Christ called for us to repent it was not one time, but the life of believers was to be one of continual repentance. By the grace of God, as I’ve grown in Christ, I recognize sin triggers and patterns in my life. My prayer is for all believers to grow in Christ and recognize their sin nature and turn from it. Fundamentally, this would be why many call me a “Lordship Salvationist”. The idea that walking and isle or repeating a prayer, makes me saved is fundamentally on biblical (grew up a typical easy believism baptist). As you quoted earlier, Romans 10:9-10 say “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”. Salvation is simple it’s Grace alone through Christ alone, by Faith alone. Finally, the idea of a carnal Christian is also not biblical as you have pointed out. Carnality and Sin exist in Christian life, but this is when we are walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit. This is why being plugged into a local body is so important, we need others to help maintain our accountability, and to help us recognize sin issues we may be blind to. These dear brothers and sisters in Christ, are not lifting up self but simply helping us to maintain a pure life Christian walk so we may have sweet fellowship with the Father.

    In Christ,
    Ryan

  91. john says:

    Jason, one does not need to repent of his old lifestyle in order to be saved. One does not need to desire to live a better life in order to be saved. One needs to trust in Christ alone for his salvation. Specifically, that Christ (God in the flesh) died for our sins (paid the full penalty for all of our sins – past, present, and future – leaving us nothing to pay), that He was buried, and that He rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

  92. jimfloyd12 says:

    Jason,

    John is correct. One does not need to repent of the old lifestyle to be saved. Also, I think that you may have misunderstood the part about what you labeled Gnosticism. There is a difference between not being condemned again and not being responsible. We are indeed responsible to God for our lives as believers and this is evaluated at the Bema Seat.

    Rom 10:9-10 are often misused to insert confession in addition to faith for salvation.

  93. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan,

    The quote from Luther is not an accurate one. We don’t repent of sin for salvation.

    “The idea that walking and isle or repeating a prayer makes me saved is fundamentally on biblical (grew up a typical easy believism baptist).”

    No one here is advocating this. Walking an aisle and repeating a prayer does not save. You must trust Christ as Savior.

    This part is correct on its own: “Salvation is simple it’s Grace alone through Christ alone, by Faith alone.” However, maybe you could consider using Eph 2:8-9 as the basis for this.

    There is such a thing as a carnal Christian and Christians do act carnally. The apostle Paul rebuked many of them. Just think of the Corinthians. Now there were some carnal Christians.

    “Carnality and Sin exist in Christian life, but this is when we are walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit.”

    Walking in the flesh is the same as living through the old man. Walking in the Spirit is done through the new man. Each believer has a moment by moment choice to walk in the Spirit or not. When we fail to do so, we should acknowledge it and move on back in the Spirit.

    Jim F

  94. johninnc says:

    If the desire to live a better life is a requirement for salvation, then one is trusting in his good intentions to get into heaven.

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    Think about it this way. If you think the desire to live a better life is required for salvation, then is the continuation of that desire necessary to keep salvation? Let’s say you had the desire to live a better life when you became saved, but you don’t have that desire presently. The only basis for your assurance of salvation would be that you had the desire to live a better life at one moment in time. That would lead to endless speculation about whether your desire to live a better life was “sincere” at the time of “conversion”, or not. You are not trusting in Christ in that case. You are trusting in your good intentions.

  95. johninnc says:

    Ryan, you said: “It’s not a lack of sin, but a desire to turn from sin. I always like to say its direction, not perfection.”

    My comment: “I always like to say” is not the most compelling Biblical argument.

    The Bible says nothing about having a desire to turn from sin as being necessary for obtaining the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life comes by grace through faith in Christ.

    If one thinks he must desire to turn from sin in order to obtain the free gift of eternal life, then he has added a condition (his desire to turn from sin) to belief.

  96. jimfloyd12 says:

    Holly has submitted this reply via email. She wrote: Jason, you said:

    Are you encouraging Christians to live carnal lives?

    Where above, specifically, do you see such a thing even slightly implied? Did you actually read, because not sure how you would arrive at that conclusion from what I said above, which was this (synopsized):

    1) Addressing teachers like MacArthur who say there is ‘no such thing’ as a carnal believer, in order to show the Bible says quite differently.

    2) Addressing people who say we are ‘encouraging Christians to live carnal lives’ as a false accusation, one that is frequently used to mischaracterize those who want to defend the gospel.

    You said you are,“seeing a defense of the carnal life in this thread”, I’d sure like to know the exact specifics, who you are accusing of such a serious accusation, because I did not see any such thing above. As a professing believer, this is not to be done without witnesses, i.e., their own written words in public correctly brought to light.

    The point of my comment is; instead of people finger pointing, and fruit inspecting, and possibly accusing the brethren, there are several options. If one thinks a person is not saved:

    1) Perhaps they should do the only thing that will remedy that and preach the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16-17; 1 Cor 1:17-18).

    2) If they feel people are not growing, are still in the milk, then they should follow the example of Jesus when He washed the disciple’s feet that were already clean. A picture of sanctification, we do the same for others by reproving, correcting and giving them instruction in righteousness with the Word of God (2 Tim 3:16-17). Which is able to wash and sanctify them (Ps 119:9, Eph 5:26, John 17:17). People should commend them to the Word of His grace (Acts 20:32).

    3) If anyone loves Jesus then they should feed His sheep…Again, point them to His Word and trust it to work instead of lopping off ears with the sword.

    4) If people want to have fruit, they need to abide in the Lord, if they want to be disciples, they need to abide in His Word, for apart from Him we can do nothing. So perhaps we send people to His Word in love for others.

    I don’t really see a defense of carnality here anywhere, but open to see it clearly laid out as any suggestion of impropriety of another should be. But it should be brought out and corrected by His Word. Another thing I might suggest, you need to be careful with what you are reading into what another believer said, without careful and prayerful consideration, and sound speech that cannot be condemned. Suggesting we are encouraging carnality and sound like gnostics, is not sound, and it’s not seemly for another believer to correct in this manner. (Assuming something actually needed corrected)

    Too long, accusations from other in the church (building), kept me from growing. Thank the Lord for a few humble and mature believers who knew where to point me back to. Hopefully others will learn to do the same, for they will answer for making young ones stumble.

    By the way, your other accusation of ‘seeing Gnosticism’ isn’t even aptly applied here. Maybe before you use terms to accuse people, you might be clear on the definition.

    In Christ, Holly

  97. jimfloyd12 says:

    Jason and Ryan,

    Please consider 1 Cor 3:1-15
    1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
    4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
    5) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
    6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
    7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
    8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
    9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
    10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13) Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
    14) If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15) If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    I have to believe that based on the ideas presented in Kyle Idleman’s book that he would say believers such as the ones addressed here are “fans” and therefore not really saved.

    The Christians at Corinth were rebuked and admonished by Paul for failure to grow. Paul had to feed them with milk because they couldn’t even handle the deeper things. Verse three gives some reasons why they were considered carnal. Each believer is responsible as to how they build upon the foundation that Christ has laid. Not all will be rewarded the same at the Bema. Some will be faithful in discipleship and in growing in Christian maturity while other may be neglectful for the most part being carnal yet still be saved based on Christ’s imputed righteousness yet so as by fire.

    Jim F

  98. jason brogan says:

    Holly,
    Please re-read my post that you responded to. I said I see Gnosticism in the thread. I did not say in your post specifically. (That issue was addressed and thank you Jim) I am not here to argue with anyone but when you tell others that they are wrong in there beliefs you cant get angry when they question yours. This is a forum for discussion, if you don’t want to talk to others then that is fine but please don’t be angry because I did not agree with you.

  99. jason brogan says:

    Jim,
    Maybe, no definitely, I have gone off track here. I am not trying to defend Kyle Idleman or his book. He can do that for himself. While there are things that I do like about that book, there are also things that bother me. The passage you mention in 1 Cor. Jim is a good example. I would agree with you that those people are saved BUT I think Paul is trying to direct them into a holier life. I don’t think he is saying you are carnal people and will always be that way. He is saying you are carnal people but move beyond carnality. Grow as Christians. That is all I am saying.

  100. jimfloyd12 says:

    Jason,

    It is correct that Paul is directing them toward growth and Christian sanctification. I think the thing that people misunderstand is that behavior is a bad indicator as to their salvation but is a decent indicator of faithfulness. Even more mature believers can vacilate between being in the flesh and walking in the Spirit.

  101. hollysgarcia says:

    Jason, I did see and recognize that you said Gnosticism was in the thread. Nowhere did I suggest that it was me that you were speaking to, I was just addressing the comment in general.

    Let me also clarify I am not angry, and certainly not because you “did not agree with me”. 🙂 I don’t have any inclination to get people to agree with me. I’m just trying to point out that you are placing words and thoughts in other people’s mouths and they are improper accusations without specifics. Do you see the difference? 🙂 (I do the smile so you know there is no anger here). And even in reading anger into my comment, correction is just that, correction, maybe I can learn to come across in a better way, I’ll re-examine what I said, I had to re-create what I wrote the first time as my posts were not posting. Hopefully this one will, but this time I’ll be smart and save it.

    In Christ, Holly

  102. hollysgarcia says:

    As for Ryan, I believe if he’ll just search the thread, the passages regarding carnal Christians has been addressed (and seemingly ignored) multiple times.

  103. hollysgarcia says:

    Jim Floyd

    My comment: “I always like to say” is not the most compelling Biblical argument.

    The Bible says nothing about having a desire to turn from sin as being necessary for obtaining the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life comes by grace through faith in Christ.

    If one thinks he must desire to turn from sin in order to obtain the free gift of eternal life, then he has added a condition (his desire to turn from sin) to belief.

    Well said, and I do hope people might come to understand, the point of these posts, is so that people will not be deceived, and be lost, and also cost others their lives.

  104. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Holly, that was John’s quote and I agree. It is much better to refer to what the Bible says itself and about itself as much as possible. Men tend to mess things up. No one I’ve met has directy come out and said salvation is by works. They however tend to repeat the deception of a works gospel while making it sound like grace. Hopefully the casual observer see that sites like this exist both to defend the truth and uncover common deceptions. People may not always like it at first but the proof is in the Word. They just have to search it out.

    I praise God that He is patient with us.

    Jim F

  105. Meichele Geis says:

    Belief is not enough. “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.” James 2:19

  106. jimfloyd12 says:

    Meichele,

    Thanks for coming by. Let me try to explain a few things.

    The only way a person can be saved is by faith. Eph 2:8-9, John 3:16. It is not faith plus anything. One verse taken out of context can’t override over 100 that say it is obtained through faith. This is because Christ paid it all. It applies to us specifically when we repent (change our mind) and believe it.

    A lost person upon hearing the gospel can either believe it or continue in unbelief. To continue in unbelief means he did not repent. This is he did not change his mind.

    Btw, the demons cannot believe unto salvation because it not offered to them anyway. That passage in James is talking about the effectiveness of faith in this life for service. Not the effectiveness of faith to obtain the gift of eternal life.

    Jim F

  107. jimfloyd12 says:

    Let me ask, which of these verses are disproven by James 2:19? Further, what does the Bible clearly teach as the method of obtaining the free gift of salvation that Christ has already purchased… leaving us nothing left to pay? We should rejoice because salvation is ours the moment we believe and it never can be lost because it is eternal.

    John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

    John 3:15-18 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

    John 4:41-42 And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    John 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

    John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

    John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

    John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    John 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

    John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

    Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

    Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

    Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Acts 9:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed

    Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

    Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

    Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

    Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Acts 17:4-5 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

    Acts 17:11-12 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

    Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

    Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

    Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

    Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Romans 3:25-28 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

    Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

    Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    Romans 4:23-24 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    Romans 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

    Romans 9:32-33 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    2 Thessalonians 2:12-13 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

    2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    Hebrews 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    Hebrews 11:6-7 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

    Jim F

  108. johninnc says:

    Meichele, if belief is not enough, WHAT IS ENOUGH?

    Romans 11:6: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

    Meichele, are you going to heaven? Why or why not?

  109. hollysgarcia says:

    Excellent passages Jim and John, I hope Meichele might consider His Word prayerfully.

    The demons believe, and guess what, He is also their Lord. Christ is Lord of all. But He is not their Saviour. We must be really sure we have believed without works, or we are still seeking to establish our own righteousness as were those in Israel, that had not believed. They were cut off, not for works, but for unbelief.

    For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Rom 10:3

    I hope you are not counting on ANY of your own righteousness or wonderful works Meichele….

    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23

    If you are counting on any works, like, repenting from sin, committing yourself, submitting yourself, abandoning all, promising to do good, surrendering your life, etc. let us explain to you with the Word, why those are works and you will be denied entrance into the kingdom of heaven….

    God bless you as you consider in prayer, as the Lord to show you the right way, and to take away anything that you have learned through traditions or teachings of men.

  110. Emily says:

    James 2:14-26
    But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

    (You say we are not saved BY works. That is true. The works do not buy our salvation. But the natural response of a heart that believes in Jesus and is inhabited by the Holy Spirit is works. If there is an absence of works, there also you find an absence of Jesus, and, therefore, an absence of salvation because Jesus bought the salvation. Much in the same way that you can have carbon without life, but you can’t have life with carbon. Carbon, or works, do not necessarily indicate salvation. But no carbon, or no works, definitely means no life)

    Luke 9:23
    Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

    (The cross was an instrument of torture. It does not make sense to reference picking up your cross daily while arguing that being a Christian costs nothing. In this verse, Jesus is saying following him is going to cost dearly. It isn’t a decision to make lightly. Much in the same way that we would not take lightly being a prisoner of war, the early church would not flippantly refer to the cross. It was used to carry strong connotations of suffering that will result in following Jesus.)

    Luke 14:26
    If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

    1 John 2:3-6
    We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

    (Faith without works does not exist. Works is the natural result of the presence of the Holy Spirit. Much like a branch that is connected to a healthy grapevine, it will produce. If it doesn’t, there is a problem and it’s not being nurtured appropriately, and it will soon die without intervention.)

  111. johninnc says:

    Emily, please find below an excerpt from the “Difficult Verses” section of Expreacherman.com:

    Question: Doesn’t James 2:14-26 say that anyone who doesn’t do good works isn’t really saved?

    Answer: No. The Book of James was written to eternally secure believers to spur them to an active faith. You will find a good explanation of this in the booklet linked below.

    http://expreacherman.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cucuzza-faith-without-works-is-dead.pdf

  112. jimfloyd12 says:

    Emily,

    Let’s examine some of your statements.

    First off let me say that I reject flat out any “one-nature” position. Believers have both an old and a new nature.

    You said, “But the natural response of a heart that believes in Jesus and is inhabited by the Holy Spirit is works.” – this however is not true. It is true of a person who is walking in the Spirit but that believer can also walk in the flesh. They can choose to obey either and any time. Why else does the Bible say things like quench not the Spirit and grieve not the Spirit? Also why then the passages (written to believers) to put on the new man and put off the old. Why should they be told to put off the old man if as you say it is the natural response of the heart?

    You said, “If there is an absence of works, there also you find an absence of Jesus, and, therefore, an absence of salvation because Jesus bought the salvation.”

    This is also false and this is not in the Bible. In justification, the blood of Jesus covers our sin and Christ’s righteousness is seen by God when he looks at us… not our sin. We are positionally righteous before Him as believers. Works are irrelevant to justification. Believer that choose to walk in the flesh will find struggle in their progressive practical sanctification but are never in danger of losing their salvation because it was purchased and secured by Christ. The carbon analogy is not Biblical.

    You said,

    “It does not make sense to reference picking up your cross daily while arguing that being a Christian costs nothing. In this verse, Jesus is saying following him is going to cost dearly.”

    Sure discipleship and Christ following can be costly… it especially was for those physically following Christ in that day but let’s not make the mistake of equating Christ following in discipleship with obtaining the free gift of salvation.

    That verse there in I John is not talking about coming to be a believer. It is talking about know your Savior more as you grow in your Christian life. It would be like me saying, “I love my wife” but then going and doing things that she hates. How well do I know her if I do that? How well do I love her? We as believers need to remember that we can know Him more and love Him more. What better testimony is there than obedience? Just remember though that no amount of perceived fruit or obedience is final proof of salvation. Our salvation is only proven in the perfect object of our faith – the Savior Jesus Christ.

    You said “faith without works does not exist”. That is not true. James was dealing exactly with that kind of useless “dead” faith. Dead there just means useless for any good in terms of good for anyone else’s benefit. It is not in reference to being useless to secure the free gift of salvation. Think about the man needing food. A useless faith says to him to go and be warmed and filled without actually doing anything to help. God is not pleased or glorified by that type of thing.

    Once again the Holy Spirit’s presence does not guarantee works. Think of what the Corinthian believers were like. They needed many corrections and instructions from Paul.

    I pray that you consider that salvation can be your simply by trust Christ alone for it. He is God in the flesh, lived a sinless life, and died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for your sin. He rose again the third day and is a living risen Savior. You are saved the moment you trust Him for it based on the gospel. (What I just shared.)

    Jim F

  113. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan, I am not sure what you are agreeing on with Emily but please also consider what I just said.

    Jim F

  114. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks John, the link is a good one.

    Jim F

  115. hollysgarcia says:

    I think it’s wise for one to ask if they are still sinning if they are trusting in the proof of their salvation by works.

    They might ask some of their family if they ‘appear’ sinless.

    Is ‘mostly’ sinless going to be workable?

    Isn’t the standard perfection?

    Being and walking as a Christian costs us one way or another. It may cost us chastening, it may cost us loss of rewards, loss of fellowship with other believers and God, could even cost us our health or our life if we do not start becoming a disciple. Walking as a Christian costs us as the world hates us more and more if we become more like him

    Becoming a Christian is free. It doesn’t cost us anything, it cost Jesus His life which He laid down willingly for us. Anyone who dares add their works as part of the equation is trampling the Son of God underfoot.
    They do not trust in His blood to totally cleanse them and count His blood unworthy.
    Those who try to work for part of their standing as a child of God will be turned away. Those who try to work after they have sincerely believed as a child, have been bewitched and are also insulting the Spirit of Grace.

  116. Brad4Grace says:

    I really can’t add anything more significant than what Jim and John have already said so well, but I will point out that you have to be careful Emily and all who hold that position that you do not place your theology into the text (eisegesis) but rather get your theology from the text (exegesis). In Calvinist and Arminian circles, eisegesis happens frequently
    Also, be careful not to say “MUST” but by all means say SHOULD”. A believer SHOULD have fruit but to say he/she will is making the Gospel faith alone in Christ alone plus the works they MUST have to prove they have what Calvinists/Arminians call “saving” faith. They have now re-defined faith to make it qualitative (one that produces works etc); and made FAITH the issue and not the work of Jesus Christ (The object). Both systems take one’s eye off Jesus Christ and his perfect work and put the focus back on man.

    “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” Romans 1:16

  117. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Brad, you make a very good point here:

    “They have now re-defined faith to make it qualitative (one that produces works etc); and made FAITH the issue and not the work of Jesus Christ (The object). Both systems take one’s eye off Jesus Christ and his perfect work and put the focus back on man.”

    The issue is whether or not we will trust Christ for salvation. This is hard to do if we don’t see that salvation has been purchased by Christ and is offered freely as a gift.

    Jim F

  118. Allison says:

    Wow! I am so glad I found this site. I had no idea ‘free grace’ churches and theology were difficult to find. fortunately, i grew up with a wise young pastor who emphasized importance of grace and this wonderful free gift we have in Christ, of works as a response & a good thing but not necessary for salvation, a focus on loving God and loving others, while working on remaining humble (seeing our own shortcomings) and nonjudgmental towards others (learning to accept and love others despite their shortcomings). ‘we are all beggars looking for bread.’ very anti-legalism, anti-Pharisee approach (not taking pride in the way we do things compared w/others, esp w/other Christians).

    I was sad to learn as I got older that other people had quite negative experiences of Christianity, “fire and brimstone,” “you are going to hell if you don’t stop sinning,” legalistic approaches, etc. that they say contributed to them stopping their involvement in church. What they described was so different than anything I experienced.

    Someone was correct on this thread to say that you can find more ‘free grace’ support in small group settings. I believe it is because as you get to know people and our fellow believers, we begin to understand that life and Christians as people are complicated. Christians do not always move in a “direction” towards God all the time. They sometimes move backwards and are farther from God, then in the same year, they get closer towards God. I read all the comments in this thread tonight! and i believe it is easy to say things like ‘direction not perfection’ theoretically; but then having Christians in your life (and perhaps ourselves sometimes?) who are clearly not moving in a direction towards Christ all of the time, and still working on loving them as our brothers and sisters and knowing God cares for them and loves them also, and expects us to also.

    I do have a question here for the regulars who post– would like some thoughts on whether a relationship with someone like myself (free gracer) and someone who is more LS (is that the abbreviation) would work out? We were excited to find each other (as churchgoing Christians, involved in church, etc) and almost together a year, when some of our differences in theology came out! it has kind of been the most divisive thing of late unfortunately. anyway, as you can imagine, I feel his views are quite legalistic and judgmental of others who do not take on his view and I think he feels I am not “Christian” enough (exactly based on a lot of the LS things written here… i was asked “where is your fruit?” which totally shocked me lol. or… “here’s how i have served, what have you done lately?” made me very mad as you can imagine. (btw i had served lately also, but just couldn’t believe another Christian was going to ask/judge me on that???) well, any mature insight on this welcomed.

    what led me to this blog was because they are reading the book ‘not a fan’ at his church. now i do want to say that we both go to churches that seem pretty ‘mainstream’ Christian for this area. and this area does not necessarily have a high percentage of believers. anyway, i thought it’d be good for me to follow along and read it also, so that he and i can discuss. lol, i just read the jacket cover and can already tell i probably have problems with it!! lol, who are these Christian ‘fans’ that he is talking about? I find the book jacket already judgmental of other Christians, in my opinion, and doesn’t reflect any fruit of the spirit on the author’s part towards others at all. i see an emphasis on works and what i imagine is envy or jealousy of other Christians who ‘aren’t doing enough or aren’t committed enough’ almost like the prodigal son’s brother’s view of the prodigal son…. anyway, i will give the book a shot and read it with them. these are just my personal reflections already.

    i also find it interesting that you have some posts on MacArthur. I only heard about him exactly 3 weeks ago, when my Aunt sent me this post with this message: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDuDN2FtrIo

    “It is a very sad thing that Joel Osteen appeals to so many people (his books are best-sellers). Clearly, he is a tool of Satan, the great Deceiver, who uses “prosperity gospel” to feed the “desires of the flesh” in the name of “Christianity” . I am glad that John MacArthur rebukes him.
    In today’s perilous world, it is vital that we exercise great alertness and discrimination while fixing our eyes on Jesus Christ.”

    Wow, i came out with the opposite impression, that the speaker was not following Christ as he spends 10 minutes of a sermon putting down, making fun of, another Christian! I mean, I don’t love Joel Osteen or anything, but I also don’t think he is a tool of the devil or anything like that. I think he is probably a Christian– but Christian or not, God asked us to love others and that would include him. He asked us to be gentle in our words with others. instead, there is this harsh public rebuke– i mean, if MacArthur wants to rebuke him, why not do it privately 1:1 with Joel Osteen?

    I see a bigger problem too and I don’t know if you discuss this elsewhere on your blog, but there is something that feels sinister to me in the youtube video above. so why does he say this about Osteen? I mean, all the followers of Osteen are not suddenly going to stop attending his talks and church because this guy MacArthur said he’s heretical. so the audience is not really Osteen’s followers. he is, however, speaking to a congregation of Christians whom he has influence over. and i think that the example he is leading in this short youtube clip is how to condemn, judge, ridicule, mock other Christians. And in a sense giving permission to do so. To me, it is not Christ-like and actually goes against what Christ asked us to do, and how Christ asked us to treat other people, including the ones we dislike or disagree with. And I don’t think this kind of behavior serves Christianity as a whole, or brings people towards Christianity (just looks like a lot of infighting), and actually brings about divisiveness in the church. thanks for letting me rant here. i had wanted to write this back to my Aunt, but my Dad said not to lol. so i guess here it is instead.

    anyway, thanks for starting this blog and look forward to reading more here.

  119. johninnc says:

    Allison, following is an excerpt from Clear Gospel Campaign on the subject of Christian unity, and a link to a sermon from Tom Cucuzza of Northland Bible Baptist Church that discusses unity.

    First, from Clear Gospel:

    Scripture teaches the unity of the church as one of the highest goals toward which the church should aspire (Ephesians 4:3). We believe, therefore, that not every theological dispute merits separation. For example, whether the church of Galatia was located in North Galatia or South Galatia is a valid question, and one that has been explored and debated by theologians, but it is certainly not a question over which fellowship should be broken.

    We believe, however, that any area of doctrine even remotely affecting the integrity of the gospel is inherently serious (Galatians 2:11-14), that Scripture calls us to draw the line at the earliest point, and to yield not one inch on matters that jeopardize the integrity of the gospel, a compromise that jeopardizes the eternal life of every man, woman and child on this planet who has not yet heard the gospel message (Galatians 1:6-9, 2:5).

    And now, Tom’s sermon:

    Zone in on minutes 17:15-25:

    http://northlandchurch.com/content.cfm?id=213&download_id=29

  120. jimfloyd12 says:

    Allison,

    Thanks for stopping by. There is great danger in relationships with people if you disagree on beliefs. It is definitely something that you both would have to come to agreement on. Some people today find themselves in a marriage relationship but have to struggle with their spouse who has an opposing view.

  121. hollysgarcia says:

    Allison, definitely don’t join in with a person with lordship salvationist views. The biggest favor you can do if he cares for you is separate and tell him why. Your first allegiance is the Lord, and then His Word, for it is the truth and we are sanctified by it. You know how bad company corrupts good morals? It is much truer (imho) with Christian doctrine than it ever has been to be in the world (as we must). But we are to separate from those who have a different gospel. Add one thing, take away one thing, a different gospel… Be happy to answer more questions or expound if you like. I know any would be here.

  122. jimfloyd12 says:

    To the commenter named thefallensaint, name calling is beneath the tenor of this blog. I run this with the desire to be uplifting even for those who disagree. I know for some it is shocking at times to get their theological error exposed but please try to go back and see what James is saying in chapter 2. First, he is writing to eternally saved believers that can and will never be lost. Second, he is talking about the usefulness of their faith for good in this life. Prove otherwise.

    Jim F

  123. jimfloyd12 says:

    For further reading please see the article Faith Without Works is Dead. http://expreacherman.com/2-free-booklets-dr-cucuzza/

  124. Henry says:

    “Why not tell us EXACTLY how much time, works, passion, excitement, cheering, enthusiasm, outward signs, significant changes, sacrifice, commitment, following, radical behavior, changing your life, repentance(their definition), surrender, dying to self, intimacy etc. it takes to BE SAVED? I really wish they’d spell it out instead of herding the sheep around and around into a tighter and tighter circle.”

    The things mentioned in the above quote do not save people. Those things are not the means by which salvation is received. Saying that those things are the consequences of regeneration is not the same as saying that those things save you.

  125. jimfloyd12 says:

    Henry,

    It is the same difference. Those things (signs) are essential for the LS types to think that a person is saved. So in essence works are still required After salvation as proof that the salvation was real and not a “fake”. However, the only real proof of salvation is the object of faith. The individual believer also has the witness of the Holy Spirit. IF I want to try to gage the likelihood of a persons salvation I would check to see who or what they are trusting in for salvation.

    Besides the Calvinist LS types will say that God grants faith so in that sense they are already wrong. This is the reason logically that they need to have a way to verify if it has happened or not.

    Jim F

  126. jimfloyd12 says:

    The result of regeneration is the birth of the new man… which is not visible. Only what is seen is works but like has been said before, believers have both an old man (nature) and a new man (nature). The new man cannot sin while the old still can. There is no guarantee given that says good works will be evident but there are plenty of verses that tell us as believer to be obedient. This instruction is there because it is not automatic. IF it were then there would be no need of instruction.

    Jim F

  127. Curtis M says:

    when we Trust Jesus as our Savior by Grace Through Faith .God doesn’t change our sin nature He changes our relationship to it .

  128. Curtis M says:

    we are to be dead to sin and alive to God , before trusting Christ we were dead to God and alive to sin
    The wages of sin is death
    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    the penalty of sin is NOT Repenting of your sin’s, Turning from your sin’s or whatever you feel needs done about sin that Jesus has not already done on the cross.
    The penalty of sin is DYING for your sin . Jesus PAID our sin debt dying for us was buuried and rose again the third day acording to the scriptues.
    doing does not make us spiritual we become spiritual in our thinking . when we abide in Christ Jesus the by product is obedience with out us knowing it . Jesus , Holy Spirit He is living his life through us .
    Graces teaches us to deny ungodliness
    Grace teaches us the seriousness of sin more than what the Law ever could do in all the doing.

    Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

  129. Andrew says:

    So does that mean Kyle and those who believe what he is teaching are not saved!?

  130. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Andrew, we can’t know if Kyle or others believing in a faith plus gospel are saved or not because we are not sure whether or not they ever trusted Christ alone. We do know that they are teaching a false gospel now. We also know that there were believers like the Galatians that were drawn back into law keeping.

  131. Ryan says:

    Jim, do you believe all LS people believe in faith plus? Personally I do not know any LS people who would proclaim faith plus. Most will tell you that they have arrived at this position based on Luke 9:23 cross; Luke 14:26–27; Matt. 10:38 16:24; Mark 8:34; John 12:24–26 The kind of self-denial they would claim is a willingness to obey His commandments, serve one another, and suffer—perhaps even die—for His sake. Maybe if mislabeled myself…I look forward to the responses from the group.
    One additional point, as I know many here are I certain of “LS” view of salvation it’s simple the Word of God is the only thing that can convince convict and convert sinful hearts. The Gospel is this There is no greater message to be heard than that which we call the Gospel. It is important that I don’t distort or over simplify it. People think they’re preaching the Gospel to you when they tell you, ‘you can have a purpose to your life’, or that ‘you can have meaning to your life’, or that ‘you can have a personal relationship with Jesus.’ All of those things are true, and they’re all important, but that is not the Gospel.
    The Gospel is called the ‘good news’ because it addresses the most serious problem that we have as human beings. That problem is : God is holy, He is just, and I’m not. When we come to the end life, We stand before a just and holy God, and I’ll be judged. Now I’ll be judged one of two ways: either on the basis of my own righteousness – or lack of it – or the righteousness of another (Jesus Christ). The good news of the Gospel is that Jesus lived a life of perfect righteousness and obedience to God, not for His own well being but for His people. He has done for me what I could not do for myself, He lived that life of perfect obedience, He offered Himself as a perfect sacrifice(1 co 15:3) to satisfy the justice and the righteousness of God.
    For God to forgive you is a very costly matter, it cost the sacrifice of His own Son. God pronounced it valuable by raising Him from the dead (1co 15:4) so that Christ died for sinners like me. He was raised for our justification. So the Gospel is the message of who Jesus is and what He did.

    SalvationHow do I get it?
    The Bible makes it clear that we are justified or made right by faith – and by faith alone. Its not by our works, efforts, or deeds, but again by faith alone. The only way you can receive the benefit of Christ’s death and resurrection is by putting your trust in Him – and in Him alone. Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.You do that, you’re declared just by God, you’re adopted into His family, you’re forgiven of all of your sins, and you have begun your pilgrimage for eternity.

  132. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan,

    I do believe that LS is faith plus. This is because they change what it means to believe. For them, even as you mentioned, they tKe passages like the ones on discipleship and equate it to faith. In doing so they end up adding things to faith such as a “willingness to obey” but end up with something opposed to grace. If you were consistent in you stated view of the gospel and way to receive eternal life they you should understand how discipleship passages are additional to the concept of faith/belief.

  133. jimfloyd12 says:

    I would also like to point out that almost no one goes around boldly proclaiming works for salvation, not even Catholics. Saying one thing on the surface is not the same as what a person actually means by it. It has to match what the Bible means by it.

  134. jimfloyd12 says:

    Consider John MacArthur’s faulty way of describing faith. “Believing in Jesus means receiving Him for all that He is (John 1:12). It means both confessing Him as Savior and yielding to Him as Lord. In fact, Scripture often uses the word obedience as a synonym for faith (cf. John 3:36; Acts 6:7; Hebrews 5:9).”

  135. Ryan says:

    Jim, thank you for your speedy reply and for having a page where questions can be posted and your willingness to respond. Would you say that the gospel that I presented as accurate? The way of salvation and present it is accurate? I only ask this because it is important that I clearly state the gospel. I have a hard time wrapping my head around taking Christ the Savior and not following him. Maybe it has to do with my Arminian typical Baptist background and my desire to get away from the easy believing isle walking, just as I am messages I heard my entire life. Too many times, they would walk down or raise their hand and never return. Again thank you very muchfor your reply.

  136. jimfloyd12 says:

    Yes, I think your gospel statement and way to obtain eternal is for the most part accurate. Only thing I would caution is to be careful using the verse about “if you confess with your mouth”. Remember that we believe unto righteousness. But there can also be a calling upon the Lord for deliverance from things we face here on earth.

  137. Curtis M says:

    Ryan HI
    I agree with what Jim said
    Brethren, Brethren, Brethren,
    Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

  138. Curtis M says:

    Ryan wrote

    “For God to forgive you is a very costly matter, it cost the sacrifice of His own Son. God pronounced it valuable by raising Him from the dead (1co 15:4) so that Christ died for sinners like me. He was raised for our justification. So the Gospel is the message of who Jesus is and what He did.”

    Yes and for these reasons we ought to strive to Properly , Correctly , Articulate The Simple Plan of salvation for the FREE GIFT of eternal Life it is only reasonable to do so.

  139. hollysgarcia says:

    Ryan, it is a dilemma in many ways, we don’t want to add, we don’t want to take away, we don’t want to suggest someone is licentious. Trouble is, we end up blending gospel with discipleship, and that’s not what we see happening while the apostles are preaching the gospel. They are putting people with other believers, teaching them how to meet together and grow. Commending them to the Word of His grace. Sharing the letters, the Scriptures, and telling them how this will be useful in their lives.

    For me the gospel is clearly declared in 1 Cor 15:3-4, so I try to see each aspect of what Christ has done, and for what reason, and who it proves He is (the prophesied one — as the Scriptures said) and God (being able to take His life back up again – John 10:18). For one reason He died, to pay for our sin, and what happens to those of us who believe, that we are instantly buried with Him in baptism (of the Holy Spirit — the circumcision of Christ-Rom 6 & Col 2) and risen with Him again (being made a new creature/creation, a picture of being born again). We know we are passed from death unto life…The dead shall hear and live (John 5:24-25)

  140. Val says:

    It seems as though this thread of comments has become a perfect display of self righteous, all knowing attitude. Are those determining the credibility of mr idleman all!perfect? God is the only perfect authority and I find this site of condemning comments to be very disturbing. Be sure to have the plank removed before noticing the speck!

  141. jimfloyd12 says:

    Val,

    This site is not about all knowing attitudes. I am trying to show from scripture my take on a book’s like Idleman’s. People can then look at both sets of ideas and decide for themselves. If you disagree with me or someone else posting then please supply an answer from scripture why we are incorrect. Please no labeling or name calling. I can also say after having read through Idleman’s book that that the theological problems are more than specks. It is a sad thing but which is worse? Warning people about Idleman’s book or letting them be taken in by it?

    Jim F

  142. Curtis M says:

    searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so
    Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    Val
    Thanks for your comment . I have searched out my motives for the comments I made . You are correct In that I know what it is to be self righteously Ignorant of God’s righteousness. My own self righteousness in seeking to please God by my works trying to earn God’s favor lead me to spiritual collapse and suicidal depression, Doctor prescribed pharmaceutical drug addiction and withdrawal . To discover I have been loved with an everlasting love by the blood of Jesus.
    There was a time I would Go to church with bible in hand take in what pastor said as Truth come home and place bible on shelf. I witnessed the same assembly bitterly split in two over the gospel . I now know both sides are still in error when it comes to the clarity of the gospel.
    coming out of my own self righteous spiritual deception I discovered people of like mindedness who stand firm when it comes to the clarity of the gospel. For all that Jesus Has done for us should we not properly articulate the Gospel clearly and hold souls accountable especially pastors and teachers ?
    Jim Floyd is one of those people and I thank God for souls like him who strive for the clarity of the gospel and sound the trumpet when something is not right. We are warned and told in scripture to test the spirits. I have learned to do that now. Staying centered on the clarity of the gospel of grace is not easy. I constantly am reminding myself what the gospel is and what it is not. I love to study scripture once again and reprove and exhort . It is easy for me to believe I need to do something to earn a free gift even if it is as simple as asking for a free gift. I will be first to admit I am not all knowing when it comes to the gospel , I have resigned to the fact that the gospel knows me . Jesus is hanging on to me . Make no mistake Jesus is Lord . I don’t make him Lord because He is Lord .
    I don’t know mr idelmans motives when it comes to his credibility . but I do judge his message he is preaching/teaching and find error that is effective in causing souls to live fruitless barren lives . his message is poison.

    from his own churches website
    We believe the Bible teaches that salvation—the forgiveness of sins—is only by grace through the blood of Jesus Christ
    (Matthew 26:28; Romans 5:9; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7)

    now if they would stop here and simply allow souls to be free but they ad works to salvation , condemning souls . in the very next declaration

    one receives God’s grace by
    repenting of sin
    confessing Christ
    being immersed into Christ
    We believe the Bible teaches that one receives God’s grace by putting faith in Christ, repenting of sin, confessing Christ and being immersed into Christ
    (Romans 5:1-2 / Luke 24:45-47; Acts 3:19; 17:30; 2 Peter 3:9 / Matthew 10:32; Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:11; 1 John 4:15 / Acts 2:38, Romans 6:1-7; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:21)

    the wages of sin is death
    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    sins penalty is not repenting of your sin sin’s penalty is dying for your sin .
    Jesus died for my/our sin

    Curtis M

  143. Ryan says:

    hollysgarcia, thanks for the reply and I apologize for taking so long to get back with you. I agree 1co15:3-4 is one of the key pictures of the gospel. When coupled with Romans 10:9-10 I think it makes it clear…repent. My question for you and the group is this how do we reconcile Matthew 28:19-20
    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
    Specifically observe all things whatsoever I have commanded. I know baptism isn’t a condition of salvation, but how do you rebuke those who would say it is.
    These types of things often come up in conversations with people and am interested in how many of you tackle it.
    Also can you tell me is there a difference between doctrines of Grace and Calvinism ?
    Thanks again everyone for the replays
    Ryan

  144. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Curtis. Jesus died for our sins and the gift of salvation is indeed given to us the moment we receive it through faith. That is because it is by grace…not merit.

    Val,

    I pray that you consider the truth of the gospel for yourself. None of us here can persuade you but God can through His Word.

    I do care about others. Idleman is no exception. I would urge him just as anyone else not to teach a false or confusing gospel. Does this mean I am saying that I am perfect. No, but it does mean that I am saying objectively that God’s Word does not back what he is saying. And as you said, God’s Word is the standard.

    Jim F

  145. johninnc says:

    Ryan, I know your comment was directed to Holly, but I thought you might be interested in the following from Clear Gospel Campaign:

    http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=2

  146. johninnc says:

    Ryan, also think about Matthew 28:19-20. If water baptism is a requirement for eternal life, why not the Lord’s supper? After all, Jesus told us to observe that ordinance as well:

    Luke 22:19: “And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.”

    What about Matthew 6:19-21?

    [19] Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
    [20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
    [21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    Ryan, if ANY works (water baptism, observing the Lord’s supper, laying up treasures in heaven instead of earth, etc.) are required in order to receive eternal life, than it is no longer a gift, and it is not received by grace through faith. Even if they were commandments given by Jesus.

  147. Ryan says:

    johninnc, thanks for the info, we have had a large number of churches in my area out pushing salvation and water baptism. when I’ve asked them about the thief on the cross I get no response. Just wanted the groups opinion on how to best handle these types of people.
    Also any ideas on Calvinism vs doctrine of grace. I appreciate everybody taking the time to read and respond.

  148. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan, I see the calvinism as the same thing as the so called “doctrines of grace”. I believe doctrines of grace is used by some to try to make the concepts seems more Biblical and less tied to an individual. In essence to me they are synonymous and this system actually does not understand grace Biblically as unmerited favor. They take it way beyond that.

  149. Ryan says:

    Thank you Jim,
    Seemed to be mildly different to me. Not typical Tulip but still along the same lines. It’s funny how things are repackaged to make them palatable

  150. jimfloyd12 says:

    Depending on the Calvinist it will seem more or less extreme.

  151. jimfloyd12 says:

    As far as baptism goes, I think many do not remember that there is a difference between water baptism and baptism of the Spirit. We must be careful to know in context which the verses are talking about. Also, as with any addition to the gospel, ask why then Christ’s atonement is not sufficient and why it says over 150 times in the Bible that the free gift of salvation is received without merit (by grace) through faith.

  152. jimfloyd12 says:

    Another thing to ask them is: how were people saved in the Old Testament days? Did Abraham believe God and have it accounted to him for righteousness? Or did he also have to turn from sin, be water baptized, commit to discipleship etc? People must understand that all men that are saved are saved through faith. This is regardless of the time in which they live. Just as you can’t tack on law keeping in the OT for salvation, you can’t tack on anything of merit in the NT or in our age of grace.

  153. Pete says:

    Hey! I’m pretty far in the book, and Kyle doesn’t say that salvation is through works, but that if you want to be a Christian, but aren’t willing to change your lifestyle after you’re saved, take up your cross, and make Christ #1 in your life, then you need to ask yourself whether you are really following him. Remember the rich young ruler? When he asked what he had to do to inherit eternal life, Jesus told him that he had to sell all that he had to the poor. Either Jesus is contradicting himself by saying that salvation is through works, or there is a deeper message beneath the surface about the ruler making material possession his idol. Yes, we are saved through faith, but after we ask for forgiveness and decide to follow Christ, we must live like it. We must carry our crosses daily. One of Jesus’ promises is that life will be hard when we follow him. In 2 Timothy 3:12, it bluntly puts it out there: All who desire to live godly lives will be persecuted. Following God cost the OT prophets A LOT. That is the message Kyle is trying to drive. Because there will be many who think they are following Christ, but he will say “Depart from me, I never knew you.” Kyle is trying to warn us, and encourage us to truly live for Christ, and in Christ.
    Ex. Say you gave me directions to get to a place an hour from where I was at, and I said I’d follow them. Now say that I didn’t, and three hours later I found my way by chance or whatever. Does it matter that I said I’d follow you? No. I have to show it. The book of James has one of the most controversial Bible verses ever. “Faith without works is dead.”
    But I’m glad to see that you are concerned that people will fall into the traps of works-based and knowledge-based salvation.
    This book has definitely had a positive impact on my life, cuz it made me re-examine my life, and re-dedicate myself to Christ (different from being saved).
    🙂

  154. johninnc says:

    Pete, are you following Christ because you want to, or because you think you have to in order to go to heaven?

    If you think you have to in order to go to heaven, it is possible you’ve never understood the gospel. Your words suggest you are confused on this matter.

  155. Curtis M says:

    the rich young ruler wanted TO DO for himself to inherit eternal life by keeping the law .

    they knew Jesus as Lord but not as Savior that’s why Jesus said depart from me for I never knew you

    question Pete
    are you spiritual because you follow Christ ? OR are you a follower of Christ because you are spiritual ?

  156. Pete says:

    It’s definitely because I want to. My point is that if someone truly wants to, it will show in their actions. If I said I wanted to follow Christ, but I was living an ungodly life, then how much do I REALLY wanna follow him? Christ never said following him would be easy, and he has commanded us to do certain things (be ye holy for I am holy, make disciples of all the nations, etc.), and if we love him we will keep his commandments (John 14:15). I’m not saying that Kyle’s right and you’re wrong but I’m not saying he’s wrong either. Rather, if both of you have a good understanding of the gospel, which I’m assuming you do, then you’re really on the same side in terms of what you believe! 🙂

  157. Pete says:

    To clarify, we are only saved by grace and not of works. But if we have the Holy Spirit inside us, and we are a new creation, our salvation will be reflected in our actions

  158. johninnc says:

    Pete, to what extent will our salvation be reflected in our actions? What actions should one look to in order to determine whether or not he is saved? How many?

    Following Jesus in discipleship is not required in order to have eternal life. If it were, then salvation would not be a gift. It would be a trade.

  159. Pete says:

    If someone’s trying to number or measure what they’re doing, then they’re not really doing it out of love. I don’t know if you missed my point, but I’ll say it again: WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE AND NOT OF WORKS (Ephesians 2:8). Take this example: A married couple. When a husband does the dishes, gives his wife a kiss, buys her flowers, takes her on dates, he is not doing it to earn her love. They are already married. He is doing it because he loves her. Idk why you want me to silence my love for Christ, but I won’t. John 14:15. If we are truly filled with the Holy Spirit, we will have a desire to follow him. And as Christians we are commanded to do certain things, and if we love him, we will do them. “Flee ye from youthful lusts,” “be ye holy for I am holy,” “sanctify the Lord God in your hearts and always be ready to give a defence to anyone who asks for a reason for the hope that is in you,” “go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,” to name a few. If we really love him, we will do these things.
    Read Revelation 3:14-16.
    I hope this clears everything up, and I hope you decide through the power of the Holy Spirit alone (we could NEVER in a millions years on our own) to let Christ do great things in you, and to truly follow him! 🙂

  160. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete, thanks for stopping by. Let me briefly touch on a couple things. Following in discipleship is different than being a believer. Idleman as I understood him was saying that fans were unsaved pretenders not just people struggling in their discipleship. Also, the rich young rule like Curtis mentioned, was trying to find some thing to do to be saved. He didn’t understand his lost condition of inability to save himself. Jesus was pointing out the hopelessness of him being able to get to heaven by doing something.

  161. Pete says:

    Ohh yeah, I understand what you mean. Yeah, I can see how that can be taken from his words. I still think it’s a fantastic read, but it should be read with the knowledge that salvation is not merit-based. It’s a great book, but I can see where you’re coming from. Reading it, it comes off (at least to me) more like he’s concerned for fans, rather than him making a judgement call. But either way, I can see what you’re getting at. My personal opinion: Why be a fan, anyway? It’s like that quote: “There are Christians who envy the pleasure of sinners and the joy of the saints because they have neither.” If you are just a fan, you will never be truly satisfied. Anyway, James 2:14-26 basically summarizes my thoughts. If we really love Christ, then striving to do good and to be holy will be natural. Will we sin, go off track, lose focus, etc. at times? Yes! Actually, often times. That doesn’t change this fact. But also (and maybe I’m just rambling), God knows our hearts. Zacchaeus was apparently closer to Christ than the Pharisees were. The thief on the cross who repented didn’t have time to live a godly life. So no, works do not mean absolutely anything in God’s eyes if our hearts aren’t right. And that’s the bottom line 🙂

  162. Curtis M says:

    Pete wrote
    ” but it should be read with the knowledge that salvation is not merit-based.”

    so do tell Pete how is a soul to know that from reading the book when the author himself does not believe that ?

    from his own churches website
    We believe the Bible teaches that salvation—the forgiveness of sins—is only by grace through the blood of Jesus Christ
    (Matthew 26:28; Romans 5:9; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7)

    now if they would stop here and simply allow souls to be free but they ad works to salvation , condemning souls . in the very next declaration

    one receives God’s grace by
    repenting of sin
    confessing Christ
    being immersed into Christ
    We believe the Bible teaches that one receives God’s grace by putting faith in Christ, repenting of sin, confessing Christ and being immersed into Christ
    (Romans 5:1-2 / Luke 24:45-47; Acts 3:19; 17:30; 2 Peter 3:9 / Matthew 10:32; Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:11; 1 John 4:15 / Acts 2:38, Romans 6:1-7; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:21)

    the wages of sin is death
    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    sins penalty is not repenting of your sin sin’s penalty is dying for your sin .
    Jesus died for my/our sin

    Curtis M

    so whats wrong with being a fanatic for Jesus for the clarity of the Gospel ?

  163. Curtis M says:

    “If you are just a fan, you will never be truly satisfied. Anyway, James 2:14-26 basically summarizes my thoughts. If we really love Christ, then striving to do good and to be holy will be natural.”

    whats wrong with being a Fan ?
    fanatic
    Houghton Mifflin
    n.noun
    A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

    “striving to do good” is not the Faith rest Life ,we are to abide in Christ

    Joh_15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    “works do not mean absolutely anything in God’s eyes if our hearts aren’t right. And that’s the bottom line :)”

    so How would a soul know if their hearts are right ?
    how would a soul know they “really” Love Christ ?
    The heart is deceitful above all things

    Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

    Pete you are so close to the gospel by your words Pete and yet you are so far away from the gospel by your words, you are requiring “works” as evidence of salvation

    there is Peace WITH God and the Peace OF God

  164. Pete says:

    I never went on his website, and I won’t argue that that is misleading, and to someone unsaved, they would probably take it as cleaning up their act before coming to Christ, which is wrong.

    “whats wrong with being a Fan ?”
    Kyle explains what he means by ‘fan’ in the book. By that he means someone on the sidelines, like a sports fan, not someone of the literal definition.

    “striving to do good” is not the Faith rest Life ,we are to abide in Christ
    By abiding in Christ, we will naturally do good, and have a desire to be good. You can’t argue that. I can’t truly abide in Christ and then have a desire to rape, kill, steal, lie, etc. Those desires come during the times when we aren’t abiding in Christ.

    “How would a soul know if their hearts are right ?”
    Not through any of their abilities, but solely through the Holy Spirit

    “Pete you are so close to the gospel by your words Pete and yet you are so far away from the gospel by your words, you are requiring “works” as evidence of salvation”

    Works aren’t evidence of salvation. I believe when we get to heaven we will be very surprised with who we see. There will probably be people of whom we thought in our hearts that they were going to hell for sure, and there will be people we won’t see whom we thought would get VIP in heaven (if you get what I mean with that- not literally, but I mean, they are the last people we’d suspect to not be saved).
    However, if we are saved, then we have the Holy Spirit inside us, and we now belong to Jesus. God (all ‘parts’ of the trinity) wants us to be holy and to follow Christ. He doesn’t want us to look at salvation as a free ride, because throughout the Bible, following God costed something, and oftentimes (but not necessarily/not all the time) it costed people their lives.
    2 Corinthians 5:17

    Thanks for your concern 🙂 However, praise the Lord you don’t have to worry about me not getting the gospel. If I have to summarize the gospel in brief, it is this:
    We are all sinners, which means we deserve hell. And because we are sinners, none of us are good enough to pay the price for disobeying against God. NOTHING in our abilities can do this. However, despite this, God has an unconditional love for us. Because of this unconditional love for us He wants us to be saved, so He sent His son, Jesus to die as a perfect sacrifice so that we can be saved from our sins, and the only way to be saved now is to accept Jesus’ gift of salvation. Romans 10:9. That is all we need to do basically. We can’t actually do anything to earn it. If we accept this gift, then we will be saved and the seal of security for salvation is the Holy Spirit indwelling in us (AKA we can’t lose this gift, ever. Otherwise, Dudes like King Solomon- and me and you- would lose it).

  165. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete,

    It is good that you understand that works are not evidence of salvation. Please also. Insider though that Idleman is not talking about discipleship what speaking of fans as we would think of it. For him the commitment to follow is also required in addition to faith. As above he said, “When we decide to believe in Jesus without making a commitment to follow him, we become nothing more than fans.” (p. 32)” He is saying that believing is not enough. However the Bible only speaks of receiving the free gift of salvation by faith.

  166. Pete says:

    In the end, why discourage being a completely committed follower? Why discourage people from surrendering their all? I disagree with the expression “God doesn’t care about happiness, He cares about holiness.” You know why? It’s because I believe that they go very much hand in hand, and the more you follow Christ, the happier you will be. Life will be more full, and will have more purpose. If I’m going to be honest, I’m a bit disappointed at how quickly people are to defend why it’s ok to not be a follower, and why you don’t have to be, etc. Really, we should be preaching this and pushing for this among Christians. This is what God wants

  167. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete,

    No one is pushing to not be a follower or to be lazy in the Christian life. The problem however comes in when men like Idleman take a good thing, such as discipleship, and make it a requirement for receiving eternal life. It is the same way with adding in turning from sins or saying a prayer or baptism or public confession or whatever else it is that you can pull from the Christian life to make an addition to the requirement of faith for reception of eternal life. The simple fact of theater is that there is no real discipleship possible if one does not become a believer first. No one can do this by faith plus.

  168. Pete says:

    “The simple fact of theater is that there is no real discipleship possible if one does not become a believer first. No one can do this by faith plus.”
    Then we’re on the same page! 🙂

  169. Curtis M says:

    Pete how can we be “on the same page” when we are defending, proclaiming and up holding the Truth of the Gospel , You are here trying to defend a False perverted gospel ?.
    Will happily toss you a rope to pull yourself up out of a false teaching ditch , But please don’t ask or assume we going to climb down so we can be on same page.
    Of course a soul SHOULD yield surrender to , recognize Jesus is Lord and desire to walk in fellowship but NOT FOR salvation or as a result of salvation .
    Abiding in Christ Knowing ones biblical position in Christ the Natural by product SHOULD be obedience not out of duty but of Love. Not focused on Sin management but focused on Jesus sufficiency.
    its either Human achievement or divine accomplishment , stop trying to mix them together

    the truth of the gospel
    we have believed IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ,
    Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
    Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

  170. johninnc says:

    Pete, we grow in Christ when we focus on Him, and in our position in Him.

    Focusing on HIm:

    Hebrews 12:2: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Focusing on who we are in Him:

    Ephesians 1:6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    Failing to stay focused on who we are in Him:

    James 1:24: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

    Kyle Idleman has us focus on whether we or in Christ, based on our works. No Christian will ever experience growth in Christ that way. And, many unbelievers will think that good works are the way (or at least part of the way) to have eternal life.

    We may be on the same page as far as how one receives eternal life.

    But, we must recognize when the gospel is being attacked if we are going to defend it.

  171. Pete says:

    Curtis, I already told you where I stand when it comes to salvation. I know truth is a hard pill to swallow, but we worship a Jealous God. You need to re-read what I’ve said. Anyway, read James 2:14-26. Hard passage to swallow, but it’s still truth

  172. Pete says:

    John, I agree with you. However, how I understood it was that Kyle was simply helping explain what it means to follow Christ. There is nothing wrong with that. James 2:21. James 2:24. Of course, read them in context, but the point is that if you have faith, then you will display it through works. Therefore, if you are not displaying it through works, you do not have faith. Of course, this does not mean that you do not have salvation (thief on the cross, for example: he had no time to do good works). Sometimes it’s hard to know where to start. Sometimes we need someone to remind us of this, and that is what Not a Fan did for me. The Holy Spirit used this book to convict me. Not a Fan is not a book for unbelievers. It is a book for believers who want to be more serious about following Christ. The apostles used strong language when describing themselves. They would introduce themselves as Christ’s slaves (ex. Romans 1:1). A slave does not say (for example), “I cleaned the table in my heart.” A slave will do what they are commanded by their Lord/master, and that is how our attitude should be with Christ. I’m not saying you disagree (unless, of course, you do), I’m just saying that what Kyle is doing is speaking these truths to us. Kyle just seems concerned. Not too long before he became more serious about following Christ and he wrote the book he was what he now considers a ‘fan,’ but Kyle does not question whether he was saved or not before that lifestyle change. 🙂

  173. johninnc says:

    Pete, I am happy that you found Idleman’s book to be inspirational. I found it to be a corruption of the gospel message.

    Idleman said: “Biblical belief is more than mental assent or verbal acknowledgement.”

    My comment: What does this even mean? What is “Biblical belief”? Belief is belief! If one believes in Jesus as his Savior, he has eternal life.

    All who believe in Jesus as Savior were like the thief on the cross in the sense that they were condemned until they believed. And, like the thief on the cross, all who believe in Jesus as Savior are saved the moment they believe. Whether or not those who have time for good works go on to do them is irrelevant to them having, or proving that they have, eternal life.

  174. Curtis M says:

    “Anyway, read James 2:14-26. Hard passage to swallow, but it’s still truth”

    Pete I strive to have a hunger for Truth with humbleness of mind we all should as believers . For God resist the proud but gives grace to the humble

    ok i read James chapter 2 -14-26 , and do tell what to do with rom 4 ?

    but of debt
    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

  175. Pete says:

    Within their contexts, both are correct. James 2 is talking about the “even demons believe in God” kind of faith, whereas Romans 4 is about being justified and being righteous. One is about what we say vs. our actions, and the other is about salvation. I should have been clearer. Sometimes I assume that everyone else is making the same assumptions as me, which is (obviously) not correct. The way I understood Not a Fan (and maybe I’m wrong) is that he’s warning about the “even demons believe in God” (or the, “I go to church so I’m saved”) type of Christians.

    “Pete I strive to have a hunger for Truth with humbleness of mind we all should as believers . For God resist the proud but gives grace to the humble”

    I agree, and as soon as we say that we play a role in our salvation, we are prideful, and stealing some of the credit from God. And we worship a jealous God. That is not a game we should intentionally play. Jesus was the most humble, and he told us to follow his example of humility. Salvation, and day-to-day spiritual victories are 100% God-given. We do not have the power to acquire them through our own abilities, even if we wanted to (which usually, we don’t. It usually takes God breaking us down for us to finally let Him do the work, which is an unfortunate reality of how prideful and stubborn us humans can be).

  176. Pete says:

    John, I think he means believing what the Bible says. I think he’s talking about James 2:19 people. I’ve met people who say things like, “I believe in God, but I don’t agree with Christianity, and I think the Bible was written by men trying to oppress society” or, “I believe in God, but Jesus was just a good man.”

  177. Curtis M says:

    Pete wrote :
    “Within their contexts, both are correct. James 2 is talking about the “even demons believe in God” kind of faith,”

    Pete Please explain “kind of faith ” in relation to demons

  178. Curtis M says:

    My brethren, My brethren
    Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

    My brethren, My brethren
    Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

    profit,profit,profit
    can faith save him? Save him from what ?
    Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    profit,profit,profit
    Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

    man
    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    man
    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    salvation (justification once and done)
    service (rewards)

  179. Pete says:

    Curtis, what I mean is those who say they are Christians. The “i go to church” or “I believe God exists” Christians, who believe that this is all it takes to enter God’s kingdom.

  180. Curtis M says:

    So is there more to believing than believing or is it really really believing ?

    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved
    Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

    believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life
    Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

  181. Pete says:

    Yes, it is more than just believing that God exists. It is more than just believing that Jesus was a man who once walked this earth, or that he was just a good teacher with good morals. It actually has to mean something to the person believing. They actually have to believe that they are sinners, Jesus is God, he died for their sins, and he rose from the dead.

  182. Ryan says:

    I think what Pete is trying to communicate is the difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge. To know facts about Christ is different than knowing Him. To say I believe in god is different than believing in the God of the bible.

  183. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete’s example seems adequate. We do need have the correct content for our faith not just generalities. However, many people would use the James passage to say works must be evident in the life of the believer or they weren’t really saved. LS does that.

  184. Curtis M says:

    Pete Wrote
    They actually have to believe that they are sinners
    “They actually have to believe that they are sinners, Jesus is God, he died for their sins, and he rose from the dead.”

    Pete Chapter and verse please : “They actually have to believe that they are sinners”

    Christ died for our sins
    1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    For all have sinned
    Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    while we were yet sinners
    Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    the love of God toward us
    not that we loved God
    but that he loved us
    1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
    1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

  185. Curtis M says:

    God be merciful to me a sinner
    this man went down to his house justified
    Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    Heaven is a gift for the guilty , Not a reward for the righteous

  186. Pete says:

    Ryan, that is correct. I’m bad at communicating what I want to say in simple terms aha. Thanks!

  187. Pete says:

    Curtis, do you believe that everyone is saved, and that everyone is going to go to heaven? Because that does not line up with the Bible. And if not, what do you believe is required for salvation?

  188. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete, Curtis is not trying to say that everyone is saved so please explain where you are going with that. A person is saved if Christ’s righteousness is imputed to them. This happens upon belief in Christ alone to save based on His atonement for our sin. That is it. No works before or after that have anything whatsoever to do with Christ’s righteousness being imputed or not. James 2 or Idleman’s discipleship has no bearing on eternal life.

  189. Pete says:

    “This happens upon belief in Christ alone to save based on His atonement for our sin.”
    Exactly. So just acknowledging that Jesus was a good man, or that God exists is not enough. And that’s what James is talking about when he says “even the demons believe- and tremble.” Those are the ‘fans’ Kyle is talking about (at least how I understood it). Good works was never a requirement and never will be. In fact, the less we ‘try’ (if you get what I mean) to live for Christ, and the more we just live IN him, those works will be natural. Will we be perfect? Absolutely not. But we will still naturally want to do good. So, no, good works has nothing to do with it. That’s the beauty and simplicity of the gospel

  190. Curtis M says:

    “James 2 or Idleman’s discipleship has no bearing on eternal life.”

    what Jim said

    at the very least I see going on here in this thread is the biblical reasoning /critical thinking skills a soul can loose when they go wondering off into false doctrine’s .
    I purposely quoted scripture over and over to hopefully help souls to think for themselves biblically as they pray for wisdom and understanding . That is my intent when i post

    Pete I did once again this am glean over your post’s from the start to me I see someone confused on the foundational basics tenses of salvation . I see a soul under the bewitching spell of another gospel. Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, ……
    If I may encourage you please put away “the books” and read THE book the holy scriptures for yourself . Myself and others have answered your questions and defended the clarity of the gospel.
    I stand firm on the doctrinal error’s of kyle idelman and mark him as one to avoid

  191. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete, try seeing the James 2 passage this way. It is talking about what we should do with the faith that we have. Now we can neglect to use it for anything good or we can use it for the God works that God desires. We have no excuse. The demons believe their is one God and at least shudder. Unlike them we have the opportunity to actually use what we have for good. They can only be fearful because salvation is not for them.

  192. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete, you can see Idleman’s error on James on pages 105 and 106. He is essentially saying we are unbelievers if our faith is “dead” and not something that is actually lived out in our lives.

  193. jimfloyd12 says:

    Please also see part two of my review.

  194. jimfloyd12 says:

    Idleman confuses following with believing and essentially makes following and obedience in our lives requirements for our faith to be actual faith. See now the difference is that obedience is necessary not for faith to be real but for us to be obedient children. Those that have dead faith in James 2 are being disobedient and neglectful children of God. No believer can ever cease to be God’s child.

  195. Curtis M says:

    it gets worse with kyle Idelman’s teaching

    Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    Please excuse my copy and paste if I may from another source . I found a website doing a simple google search on kyle idelman . I have tried to find and download a copy of the pdf to confirm . Maybe Jim has a copy to confirm . Anyhow check out below

    Noon Reminder:
    Try taking five minutes for meditation. Close your eyes and in your mind picture Jesus. Watch Him turn, look at you…

    …Note: Some of the suggestions, like this one, may sound a bit inane or even non-traditional. We encourage you to try each exercise with an open mind. Give it 100%…

    Source: Not A Fan Follower’s Journal, Lesson 1 (Sample PDF)

    Fan or Follower or Guru?

    Week One: Fan or Follower. The title may sound like a decent bible study and the morning devotion is quite inspiring and biblical, however the afternoon leaves us puzzled and looking up the definition of a guru.
    Wikipedia defines a guru as…
    Guru (Devanagari गुरु) is a Sanskrit term for “teacher” or “master”, especially in Indian religions. The Hinduguru-shishya tradition is the oral tradition or religious doctrine transmitted from teacher to student. In the United States, the meaning of “guru” has been used to cover anyone who acquires followers, especially by exploiting their naiveté, due to the inflationary use of the term in new religious movements.[1]

    “Indeed it is a new religious movement, but the ideologies aren’t so new. They come from ancient middle eastern faiths such as Hinduism, Taoism, and Buddhism.”

    “What does this have to do with a course teaching us about following Jesus? It shouldn’t be anything, but have a look for yourself –”

    “No where in scripture does Jesus tell us to equip visualization techniques or mantra meditation to get closer to Him. God tell’s us to study in thought with a sound mind focusing on His Word.”

    “Kyle Idleman’s Not A Fan Study Curriculum is having you turn the Jesus of the bible into a very dangerous false christ/spirit guide which will lead you astray. Never are we told to imagine Jesus in Holy Scripture, rather we are to pray to Him and know that he is not here for He is Risen, and will one day return – not as a lamb, but as a Lion.”

  196. jimfloyd12 says:

    I have not yet looked into it further but from what Curtis mentions it appears that Idleman is into something similar to contemplative “spirituality”. I would avoid him and his errors.

  197. Pete says:

    In response to your earlier message, I have no need to comment. I’ve already explained myself countless times as to what it means to be saved, and I don’t feel a need to repeat myself

    Jim, in response to your earlier message, of course! And like the Prodigal son, just because he left doesn’t mean he stopped being the father’s son. I was just as much saved before I decided to get more serious about my faith as I am now. A soul cannot lose salvation. However, there would come a point in some people’s lives when they need to ask if they truly are saved.

    And Curtis again, I never read the study, so I was unaware of this. “Fan or Follower or Guru?”: Is that the title of one of the week studies?

    And from the beginning, I was not trying to defend Kyle. I have no need. In the end, God will separate the wheat from the tares. And of course, you may be right and I may be wrong. That’s not the point. When I first stumbled upon this post, I understood it as an attack on being a follower of Christ, and I thought people here were saying that a life in Christ is freedom to sin, etc. That being a believer was only good for eternal insurance, but besides that God did nothing in their lives, which contradicts what the Bible says about the believer. As long as you understand that’s not true, then I can rest assured this site isn’t spreading a false gospel, which is what I was worried about. Reflecting on all this, we have similar motives, just different viewpoints. And I’m not asking for this discussion to end. Contrary, I’ve quite enjoyed it

  198. johninnc says:

    Pete, you said: “However, there would come a point in some people’s lives when they need to ask if they truly are saved.”

    My comment: what would that point be? Good works are not automatic in the life of a believer. If they were, then much of the Bible would be unnecessary.

    Someone can trust in Chriat as Savior, never serve him, and still have eternal life. The Bible clearly teaches that some believers will have all of their works burned up (see 1 Corinthians 3). The Bible also teaches that some believers will fall away (see Luke 8:13). These believers still have eternal life and eternal security.

    Eternal life is a free gift, with no cost or obligation – no strings attached. We are not advocating that believers not follow Christ. But, one must understand that following Christ has nothing to do with gaining, keeping, or proving that one has eternal life.

    If someone never understands this, it is unlikely that he has understood and believed the gospel.

  199. Pete says:

    I’m talking about the people who think they have a ticket into heaven because they believe that God exists but has nothing to do with their lives, and I’m talking about the people who think they are saved just because of their good works (did we not prophecy in your name?). Those who think going to church a certain number of times= salvation

  200. Curtis M says:

    Pete Wrote
    if they truly are saved.
    “However, there would come a point in some people’s lives when they need to ask if they truly are saved.”

    Pete a soul must receive by believing in/on Christ finished work IT IS NOT About you but the object of our Faith Jesus Christ in His all sufficiently payment for our sin passed present and future. receiving Eternal Life has nothing to do with our behavior
    God does not fix up or change our sin nature but changes our relationship to THE Sin nature.

    Christ died for the ungodly
    while we were yet sinners
    Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
    Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

  201. Curtis M says:

    Pete a soul doesn’t even need to like God to go to Heaven , Yes as crude as it sounds a soul can trust Christ as Savior and live a unfruitful, Barren , despicable life , showing no evidence of salvation , Die and go right straight to heaven .

    Another soul can live a good life , kind considerate , goes to church every time the door’s are open , serve on elder board , deacon board send their children to christian school , they die and go right straight to Hell because they never trusted Christ as their Savior .

    If Grace can Not be abused then it is not Grace

    The simplicity of Christ , the clarity of the gospel is so simple yet 95% of the teachers and preachers get it wrong or mess up something so simple , because it is simple. Or they cant stand to see souls set free from the bondage of sin .

  202. Pete says:

    2 Corinthians 5:17- If any man is in Christ he is a new creation. The old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
    Galatians 2:20- I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me
    I think trusting Christ= a lifestyle change, because the Bible says it does

    See previous comment where I said:
    “I’m talking about the people who think they have a ticket into heaven because they believe that God exists but has nothing to do with their lives, and I’m talking about the people who think they are saved just because of their good works (did we not prophecy in your name?). Those, who think going to church a certain number of times= salvation”

  203. Pete says:

    Let me explain what I mean by “I think trusting Christ= a lifestyle change, because the Bible says it does.” I’m not saying they are one and the same, I mean that if you trust Christ, then your life will change. It may not be immediate, but it will happen. How can someone have the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead in them and NOT have anything about their life change?

  204. Curtis M says:

    Pete wrote
    “Let me explain what I mean by “I think trusting Christ= a lifestyle change, because the Bible says it does.” I’m not saying they are one and the same, I mean that if you trust Christ, then your life will change. It may not be immediate, but it will happen. How can someone have the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead in them and NOT have anything about their life change?”

    Pete your comment is Hersey you did not get that from scripture someone taught that to you or you are appealing to your own Lust of the flesh for spiritual control .
    I suggest you re read the answers you received . i am done here because you keep going back to your own circular reasoning and are being unruly

    They Knew Jesus as Lord but not as Savior “Lord, Lord”
    I never knew you
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

  205. johninnc says:

    Pete, you think a Christian’s life will change.

    What about soil 2 believers?

    We are not in the same page.

    If a believer’s life WILL change, then it MUST change.

    That is Lordship “salvation.”

    See Romans 12:2.

    It is not automatic.

  206. Pete says:

    Curtis, the gospel is absolutely life-changing. You are failing to see that. The Bible says so. To say that being saved means you can go back to your old ways and everything is nilly willy is anti-biblical.
    We are absolutely changed. Galatians 5:13. 2 Corinthians 5:17. Colossians 3:9-10. Romans 6:1-23. 1 Peter 3:18-22. 1 John 2. Just to name a few.

    John, do you think an unbeliever will want to obey God’s commandments? No. So the desire to do so comes when someone gets saved. The Holy Spirit is inside every believer, and he demands change. We can grieve him when we do not obey God’s commandments

  207. johninnc says:

    Pete, none of the verses you have cited should be interpreted to mean that we can’t go back to our old ways of behavior as believers.

    Your last sentence proves that. We grieve the Holy Spirit WHEN we are disobedient. The mere fact that we can be disobedient means that we all are sometimes. Some, more than others.

    None of the verses that you have cited can be interpreted to prove that one’s life will change. We get a new, sinless nature (the new man) when we are born again. The old man is still there. That is why Paul admonishes us to walk in the newness of life. It is not automatic.

    Please read the attached article.

    http://expreacherman.com/2013/12/14/title-true-or-false-a-person-who-believes-in-jesus-for-salvation-will-have-a-change-of-behavior/

  208. johninnc says:

    Pete, I think some nonbelievers think they are trying to please God. But, without faith it is impossible to please God.

    Those Lordship “Salvationists” who have never trusted in Christ alone come to mind. They insist that believing and discipleship are inextricably linked, and in so doing preach a heretical false gospel that is accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9).

    Believers may, or may not, desire to please God. The mere fact that one can grieve the Spirit proves this.

  209. Pete says:

    What about Hebrews 11:5 (By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.), or 1 Thessalonians 2:4, Colossians 3:23, and 2 Corinthians 5:9?

  210. Pete says:

    But we also cannot forget Hebrews 11:6 (But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.)

  211. johninnc says:

    Pete, which soils in the parable of the sower do you think represent saved people?

  212. Pete says:

    The last 3

  213. Curtis M says:

    there is saving faith (justification) and living faith (sanctification) rewards, service

    rewarder,rewarder,rewarder,rewarder
    Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Eternal Life is not a reward it is a gift , Eph 2:8-9

  214. Pete says:

    Oh aha I should’ve made myself more clear. My point wasn’t that you need to please Him to be saved. My point was that you CAN please God

  215. Curtis M says:

    There is peace With God (Justification) That can never change no matter what. When a soul by Grace through faith Trust Jesus as Savior.
    the Peace OF God sanctification , fellowship with God , sin breaks fellowship with God , yet still justified .

    peace with God
    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    peace of God
    Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

  216. Curtis M says:

    God works with the New creation , God is not interested in fixing the old sin nature
    the unbelievers are the ones the Holy Spirit works on about sin because they do not believe
    The Holy Spirit convicts lead guides direct’s the believer in righteousness .
    The works for salvation crowd makes sin the focus and sin management when the focus is to be on Jesus. We are to be dead to sin but alive to God . For me to Live Is Christ.. Walk in the Spirit ..

    he will reprove the world of sin, Of sin, because they believe not on me
    and of righteousness Of righteousness, because I go to my Father
    Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

  217. Pete says:

    Romans 8:9 “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.”
    –> Only Christians have the Holy Spirit in them

    Now here are a few verses about the Holy Spirit in regards to sin. Or does the word holy not mean anything?

    John 16:12-15 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.”

    1 Corinthians 6:18-19 “Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?”

    Ezekiel 36:26-27 “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.”

    Ephesians 5:18 “And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,”

  218. Curtis M says:

    it seams to bug you to no end at this point Pete ,
    That a soul can trust Jesus as their saviour by simply believing and Live their life as they Please .

  219. Pete says:

    They can, but the Holy Spirit will convict them and nag them, and they will not have a fulfilled or enjoyable life

  220. Pete says:

    Let me edit that: They can, in theory, but the gospel is so powerful and life-changing that people’s lives DO change when they get saved. We have the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead inside us. Tell me that’s not powerful and life changing! I think you’re discrediting the gospel of how powerful it is.

  221. Curtis M says:

    Pete
    God does NOT change our sin nature when we believe the gospel . God changes our relationship to the sin nature . That is what changes our relationship to the sin nature.

    every one that believeth, power of God unto salvation
    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    you are still missing it Pete , and this is now way overdone , . Contrary to what you are saying Pete I/We have been proclaiming the Gospel right in front of you . You still refuse to Obey the Gospel .
    People’s Status changes , They go from death to life, from unbelieving to believing. and so much more. But to say a soul will live differently while they SHOULD and the provision is there that is NOT the evidence of salvation for eternal life.

  222. Pete says:

    And if our relationship to our sin nature is changed, then we will not enjoy living a sinful lifestyle while we are saved

  223. Pete says:

    And even then, Romans 8:3 “For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh”

  224. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete, I have already dealt with the notion that a change of life behavior is “going” to take place in the life of a believer as a result of salvation. Please see above. Also note that a change in life action is a result of walking in the Spirit not of being saved. It goes back to the classic error of trying to gauge salvation based on obedience during progressive sanctification. The fact of the matter is that not everyone will have much visible progress and in principle none is needed because we are imputed with Christ’s righteousness and are saved no matter what we do. Now wear be miserable disobedient children or even hardened in coldness toward God, but nonetheless saved from eternal because it is by grace. That means not even one good works is required…. or it wasn’t by grace.

  225. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete, I think we have answered you well enough on the result of salvation so let’s move on. Perhaps you have a question about grace?

  226. Curtis M says:

    Pete wrote “people’s lives DO change when they get saved”

    Pete here is one of many of the scripture needs editing to make your statement fit .

    the grace of God that bringeth salvation, Teaching us that we should live, we should live, we should live
    Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    is Paul saved ?
    Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    Paul gets his focus back on Jesus
    I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord
    Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord . So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    the legalist keep’s pointing to their own soul and souls to sin and misses the Gospel .
    Paul was a highly disciplined pharisee of pharisees and he himself struggled with legalism .

  227. Curtis M says:

    with my last post there Pete I agree with Jim

  228. jimfloyd12 says:

    Idleman and others like him are lacking grace and majoring in law keeping and christian “performance.” Anyone can choose their grace robbing legalism or you may choose to operate in true grace that God provides us through His Son. I live the christian life because I want to an choose to, not because I must.

  229. Pete says:

    Grace: the free and unmerited favour of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

    Unmerited: not deserved

    Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

    We aren’t saved because of anything we do. Then it wouldn’t be grace. I understand this because the Bible says so.
    Isaiah 64:6 (Before we are saved) “But we are all like an unclean thing,
    And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;”
    So obviously our works mean nothing when it comes to our salvation

  230. Pete says:

    Curtis, of COURSE we keep sinning, because we are still living in the flesh. However, we are not living for the flesh. But Paul was changed drastically after he got saved. Actually, Paul is one of the worst examples to show that people don’t change after they are saved.

    I’m just saying that people should want to change after they get saved, and to be upset that people want to follow Christ doesn’t make sense to me

  231. Curtis M says:

    Pete wrote:
    “to be upset that people want to follow Christ doesn’t make sense to me”

    We never said that Pete you are assuming that in your own mind,
    The problem arises when people like yourself are making a changed life a requirement for salvation or proof of salvation (justification).
    Of course a soul should live a yielded life to Christ Jesus after justification BUT NOT out of duty but of love.

  232. Pete says:

    “We never said”
    Ok. I was just making sure. I wanted to see where you stood on the topic of following Christ, cuz if you were upset about that, that would be a whole other issue

    “Of course a soul should live a yielded life to Christ Jesus after justification BUT NOT out of duty but of love.”
    For sure! It should be because they want to! If it’s out of duty, one could only keep it up for so long before they burn out and quit. If it’s out of a want, out of a love, then even when things get dry they will pick themselves up. And I agree 100% with that statement. When one gets saved, as they continue to grow in the Lord and in their faith, they realize more and more what it means that the God of the universe loves them as His own child, and how He is their father.

  233. jimfloyd12 says:

    Nobody is upset if people want to follow Christ. The problem comes in when we say believers will (concerning actions) and then fill in the blank. The better way to look at it is believers will act a certain if walking in the Spirit. There is no quantification given for inevitable life change as a believe. The difference as discussed earlier in the thread is that now we have the new man from which to actually walk in the Spirit.

  234. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete, burn-out is very common under the Lordship system that Idleman puts people under. It happens both ways. Both with unsaved people giving up.because they can live up to the works needed to prove they are saved and with believers burnt out with fear and emotional turmoil of constant introspection and “fruit” inspection.

  235. Pete says:

    Explain Lordship system before I get nitpicky and say Jesus is Lord, when you really mean something else 🙂 Thanks. I’d rather not make assumptions again

  236. jimfloyd12 says:

    The best most motivating reason to love and serve God is because we know He loves us and we know that now we are 100 percent secure in Him eternally. There is great joy and power in that everyday. However calvinism and LS takes that away and a person is really only somewhat confident so long as the signs appear good. And for Calvinists of any stripe there really is no assurance because they might at some point in life reveal to have only been “fans” as Idleman put it.

  237. Pete says:

    That and other reasons are why I am not a Calvinist. Not saying they aren’t saved, or that I hate them or anything, but I don’t agree with what they believe on predestination. And I agree that

    1 John 4:19 “We love him, because he first loved us.”

  238. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete, please see my other posts especially those on Washer, Spurgeon, Platt, and Mr Lordship himself … John MacArthur to see se other examples of Calvinist style lordship.

  239. jimfloyd12 says:

    Pete, please also see Johninnc’s testimony in the latest post over at expreacherman. He goes into what exactly the LS system is and its varieties.

  240. Pete says:

    now this is me not writing rhetorics or rebuttals, but asking genuine questions:
    If you can be far of but saved, doesn’t that mean that Washer, Spurgeon, Platt, and John MacArthur could be/have been saved as well, but, if you are right with your blog post, misguided? I think it’s wonderful to encourage people to dedicate their lives, especially when this is the greatest commandment. Matthew 22:37-38 “Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.”

    And, going off on a tangent, v39 says to love your neighbour as yourself, but the interesting one is v40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

    Anyway, yes, it’s a dangerous line to add works into the mix of being saved, but the way I’ve always heard it from people like them it’s that after you are saved you should be striving to live for God.

    Can anyone explain 2 Corinthians 13:5? Seriously though. Genuine question

    Another interesting and challenging verse is Matthew 18:3 “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” Sometimes I think we depend too much on ourselves, unlike a child

  241. johninnc says:

    Pete, we have this under our “Difficult Verses” section at ExPreacherMan.com.
    See below:

    “2 Corinthians 13:5

    [5] Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Question: What does it mean by examining oneself to see if whether one is still in the faith, does it mean that a person could falsely believe he is saved while not really saved. Am asking for i heard many people including my own pastor who denies eternal security teach that a Christian can lose his/her salvation through excessive sin.

    Answer: The verse to which you are referring (2 Corinthians 13:5) is often misused in the way that your pastor is misusing it.

    This entire passage is one of Paul defending his apostleship.

    Verse 3:

    “Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.”

    Basically, verse 5 means something like:

    “You became saved through the word that I preached. Since you are saved, it should be obvious that Christ is speaking through me – what other proof do you need?”

    I would choose another church.”

  242. Pete says:

    Oh makes sense. I googled it, and it said it’s almost a sarcastic remark. And I believe in eternal security. Once saved, always saved

  243. jimfloyd12 says:

    Yes we must come with child like faith. That is the proper response to the gospel. Guys like JMac and others can be saved and if so misguided. The problem is that LS proponents take things beyond the fact that a believer should do good works. For them it is more of a must.

  244. Pete says:

    I think, the reason people fall into that trap is because they are trying to escape and get away from the trap for ‘freedom to sin’ in Christ, which Paul speaks against.

  245. jimfloyd12 says:

    Yeah, it is a subtle deception that the devil uses. He always works in half truths. Many preachers today scare people about living licentiously but in the solution to that problem comes the real tragedy in that grace is traded out for law.

  246. jimfloyd12 says:

    Especially when Calvinism and other systems are the underlying foundation of their thinking. Mainstream “Christianity” is under this spell by in large. They have been allowing works for righteousness to creep on since the days of the early church. The Catholic Church didn’t help things And even the reformers didn’t fully escape all of the Catholic ways of thinking and definitions of key terms.

  247. johninnc says:

    Pete, while grace is not a license to sin, eternally secure believers may abuse grace.

    That is why there are so many Biblical admonitions to not do that.

    See Galatians 5:13, Romans 6:12, etc. There are consequences for sin, but loss of salvation is never one of them. Likewise, a person can be saved without wanting to turn from his sin.

  248. jimfloyd12 says:

    For example, I just went to the Focus on the Family bookstore in Colorado and guess what? It was full of mainstream popular LS teachers and books. The gospel wasn’t to be found untainted except for in the Bibles themselves. Needless to say I expected that.

  249. Pete says:

    John, absolutely. It’s impossible to count the number of times we sin, so grace absolutely is ‘abused’ (you can’t really abuse it, since it is grace). But we shouldn’t have the mindset that, for example, “oh I got my ticket into heaven. Now that that’s secured, I’m gonna get drunk, do drugs, fornicate, and swear like a sailor every day and night.” Bit of an extreme example, but just to illustrate what I meant 🙂

  250. Curtis M says:

    legalism , Loadship salvation , The teachings of Kyle Idelman and the like , can cause souls to live like you described. biblical grace is not shown and faith is meritorious , That souls find out they can’t live the christian life , I am just going to live sinfully anyhow and get my fill . Thats what makes Lordship salvation (works for salvation ) so wicked . It robs , blinds a soul of their Identity in Christ

  251. jimfloyd12 says:

    That is a really good point Curtis and Dr Arnold explains it well. I have met people that have thought there weren’t good enough and that God had rejected them so might as well live as they wanted. LS also plays heavy on the non acceptable sins but sweeps in other more respectable things under the rug…. Kind of like the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.

  252. johninnc says:

    Jim, Focus on the Family is James Dobson’s ministry. Dobson had a book signing at the Billy Graham Library on Valentine’s Day this year. Works for salvation makes strange bedfellows.

  253. jimfloyd12 says:

    John,

    Yes they have paintings all over of Dobson and his family. Needless to say the bookstore was filled with the who’s who of popular lordshippers. They had a whole end cap display for Billy Graham books, plenty of things by MacArthur, Sproul, Beth Moore and in the teen section they were playing Louie Giglio videos. There a void of grace. There was even absence of the occasional Ryrie or Chafer book. They certainly hand picked what they wanted to sell there.

  254. Curtis M says:

    with feigned words make merchandise of you
    2Pe_2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

  255. jimfloyd12 says:

    Today I received the following from one commenter named jhainn. Here is the quote and my response to follow. We do get naysayer type comments here from time to time because that is the nature of standing for the truth against popular false teaching of the day and I tend to not post them but this time I would like to respond to one so that people are clear. There is a great irony here as well which is very interesting.

    “Sorry, I do not agree with any of this. Mr Idleman’s is a teacher, he is not a heretic, nor a false whatever. Platforms like these MUDDLE the spirit and faith of true believers. In Matthew 16:24, it states “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” (KJV). We must be careful who we condemn based of of conjecture, and jealousy. There are false prophets EVERYWHERE, including ion this forum. Remember, ” Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour…” (1 Peter 5:8). Why would any man or woman of GOD post a blog cutting down another man of GOD. Who gave anyone the right to judge? “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?” (James 4:12, KJV). No man has this right, and all of those in here judging a man they’ve never MET, is against GOD; “John 3:17 – For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Read the Word of GOD, and ask the Lord for discernment and guidance before being pulled in by naysayers on the internet. I’ve provided several SCRIPTURE on judging others. So sorry, whomever is the purveyor of this blog, go to the Lord in prayer, and pray about what leaves your mouth, especially when you are spreading this type of carnage about a fellow brother in Christ. I do not know either Mr. Idleman or this fellow Jim, but it will never be my place to “JUDGE” either individual. You are trying to do the Lord’s job Sir.
    Scripture on judging others.
    1 John 4:1 – Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    1 Corinthians 2:15 – But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
    James 4:11 – Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
    Galatians 6:1 – Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
    Matthew 7:3-5 – And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (Read More…)
    1 Corinthians 5:12 – For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
    Colossians 2:8 – Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    Peace and Blessings…
    -A Child of GOD.”

    (First, I have already explained more than once how Idleman teaches a false gospel that requires more than faith to receive the free gift of salvation. If you need to see scripture on that please click on the Faith Alone page at the top menu. So if a person writes a book to teach the world a false gospel we should just sit there and not warn people of the danger? Yeah right. That is not what Paul did who actually challenged false teaching in his day and held them accountable to the Word of God. Any believer today may choose to take a stand for the truth. Is that God’s work… yes. We are to be ready to give and answer to any man of the reason of the hope that lies within us.

    Forums are a mixed bag in general, but in this particular forum’s case, I strive to allow for some discussion but ultimately to point people back to the objective truth of the gospel which never is a bad thing in God’s eyes. The accusation was that it muddles the truth… however ironically it is the catholic church and others of the reformed and protestant traditions that have acclimated themselves with faith plus errors over the years and today by in large have muddled the gospel entirely missing either the correct object of faith or missing the way salvation is received. This is a book review of Idleman’s book Not a Fan critiquing his message. It is an objective disagreement not a question on him personally. So let’s not distract this from an objective disagreement and make it personal…which it is not.

    Actually the Bible does tell us as believers to judge whether or not the things you are hearing are so. It is what the Bereans were commended for doing. That is what we are doing here. We are not judging Idleman so your verses there do not apply (some are taken a bit out of context anyway but I guess that is beside the point).

    I pray to God and ask for wisdom and the Holy Spirit’s leading each time I study and do a post. I take it seriously. So there was no ill will for Idleman on my part, only my desire to bring attention to the issue itself.

    Jhainn, please be consistent and honest with your own words. You said, “I do not know either Mr. Idleman or this fellow Jim, but it will never be my place to “JUDGE” either individual. You are trying to do the Lord’s job Sir.”

    However you are placing judgment with your accusation that this is done out of a wrong motive.

    I suggest looking back at what the gospel is. Your starting point is there. I get that it can be a bitter pill to swallow in being rebuked or in seeing a popular teacher have his teaching questioned but it is a good thing if people can be stirred to actually go back to the Word of God and take a closer look and decide based on what it says.

    Btw. people may dissent all they want but all I ask is that you use scripture to prove anything we have said that is false. So far I see none from you… only accusation.)

    Jim F
    PS, my case in point:

    Objectively this is a false statement (one of many) and actually goes against the good news gospel:

    “If you try and separate the message of follow from the message of believe, belief dies in the process. Our churches will continue to be full of fans until we break down the dichotomy between following and believing. Following is part of believing. To truly believe is to follow.” (p. 33)

  256. jhainn says:

    Although your point is commendable, look at the title of your blog. if that is not condemnation, that what is? I stated that I would not judge others based on conjecture, and truly your articles are full of opinions. I provided a half dozen or more of scripture to you, and you responded with just a hint of sarcasm. You stated “Btw. people may dissent all they want but all I ask is that you use scripture to prove anything we have said that is false. So far I see none from you… only accusation.)” I loaded my response to this topic with nothing but scripture. We have to meet people where they are, and the Bible is the handbook that we should follow, not charismatic, let’s jump on the proverbial bandwagon to hold one of our own over the coals. Have you ever written to Mr. Idleman, and asked why he teaches the way that he does. There are so many intelligent Christians, that use religion as as a platform to tear at God’s people. This man travels to 3rd world countries; to plant churches, and to preach the message of not being a fan, but a follower of Jesus Christ. To anyone that have doubts, check out Mr. Idelman’s page, and see for yourself. You stated that “Following is part of believing. To truly believe is to follow.” I’m sorry, Sir, but their are an abundance of believer’s that do not follow the doctrine of Jesus Christ, and that is why you have so many mighty men of GOD that fall to the enemy. Sir, our sins have been forgiven already; the price has been paid on the Cross. If you go to Purgatory, it’s because you did not believe, or follow Jesus Christ.

    Sir, I ask you to align what you are stating about Mr. Idelman with scripture that I have provided to you about heresy. Please show me where he has taken the Word of God, and twisted it to become your target with his book. Matthew 7:15-20, 1 Timothy 4:1-5, 2 Peter 2:1-3 and 1 John 4:1-3. These are scriptures that speak about heresy. Prove what you are telling people. Show me and these readers where you derived your information to label Mr. Idelman’s book “Not A Fan” as false teaching, as you stated on May 26th “Idleman and others like him are lacking grace and majoring in law keeping and christian “performance.” This sounds like judging to me, and anyone else that reads what you type in here should see this as well. You were supposed to be critiquing his book, but it sounds like you are criticizing Mr. Idelman. No, I am not judging either man, you nor Idelman, I ran across your blog, and it made me aware that there are individuals that are giving their opinions, vice allowing God’s word to speak. Provide sources from the Word of GOD, like I’ve provided to you.

  257. jhainn says:

    Readers, you can take someone’s words and twist and turn them and take just about anything out of context. Pray for discernment from GOD not from mankind.

  258. jhainn says:

    I urge everyone in this forum to go to this website, and read HOW “Not A Fan” became a book. Decide for yourselves. Peace and Warmest Blessings…

  259. Curtis M says:

    “Those who are the closest to the Truth of the Gospel and not see it, are the hardest souls to persuade the truth of the Gospel .”
    None so blind as those who think they see

    Not judging the man , judging the message , kyle Idelmans message is a false gospel . I also do not judge Mr Idelmans justification he may very well be justified by faith alone in christ but has fallin into legalism that we all by nature are prone to do .

    How could it be possible for kyle Idelman to meet and demonstrate his faith to everyone who reads his book ? but yet we are called on carpet because we do not know the man and saying we are judging the man ? I do not understand this gentleman’s circle of thought it does not make sense.

    I do not see a post on this blog were it attacks the character of kyle idleman ?
    so please show me

    I have seen and personally experienced the damage done by Kyle Idleman’s message

  260. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Curtis, there has been much damage done by Kyle Idleman’s type of LS message. Apparently jhainn wants proof despite what all has been discussed. And he has suggested that things were taken out of context… however they weren’t at all. I took a lot of time to go through each quote and included many of them, more than Ineeded, really and in order they are found, just sothat the accusation of “out of context” would have no ground of truth.

  261. jimfloyd12 says:

    jhainn, Once again, it is not that hard to disprove a faith plus gospel. You just take anything added in addition and and compare to one of the over 150 verses that clearly state that salvation is received through faith alone. It is not that hard to figure out. However the problem is that people have been led to believe that “faith” is an all encompassing word that can be made to include anything they want such as following, discipleship, turning from sins etc.

  262. jimfloyd12 says:

    Jhainn, yes we actually do pray to God not mankind. However I can’t say that the prayers of a LS advocate (preaching a false gospel) would like reach any higher than the ceiling. God isn’t impressed by that at all.

  263. jimfloyd12 says:

    jhainn, You said, ” Show me and these readers where you derived your information to label Mr. Idelman’s book “Not A Fan” as false teaching, as you stated on May 26th “Idleman and others like him are lacking grace and majoring in law keeping and christian “performance.” This sounds like judging to me, and anyone else that reads what you type in here should see this as well.”

    It has been proven over and over on this site. Your problem is that you see scripture differently and will not believe it as I know you have already read at least the first part. Did you read part 2? I still have asked you for proof of what I have said in error based on scripture. So none yet? You are correct above that it is judging but it is judging his doctrine, not the person himself. Idleman emphasizes Christian performance repeatedly in addition to faith for salvation. What is following? Is it faith? Are they equal? No, and that is not opinion. Look up the meaning of the word.

  264. jimfloyd12 says:

    jhainn,

    This is exactly why we should beware of LS advocates like Idleman. “Colossians 2:8 – Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

    The LS doctrine comes from the tradition of men.

    BTW, there is no such thing as purgatory.

  265. jimfloyd12 says:

    jhainn,

    Here are the list of verses that I mentioned at the end of part 2. The point was for people to look them up themselves first before me having to explain them. People tend to learn better that way especially if they are being confronted on a falsehood for the first time. It is better to let the Word speak as much as possible. I will do a part three to explain how these verses refute Idleman’s main premise and multiple errors for those that need it.

    Titus 3:5-7

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    John 3:16

    Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Rom 5:1-2
    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    Eph 1:10-15

    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

    Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    Rom 4:3-8

    Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Col 1:4-5,

    Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
    Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
    Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
    Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

    Eph 1:7
    Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    Rom 6:4, 11-13

    Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    2 Cor 5:14

    2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
    2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    Rom 12:1-2

    Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of
    your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.,

    I Pet 2:1-3

    1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
    1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
    1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

    1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
    1Co 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    1Co 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

  266. jimfloyd12 says:

    Notice again Kyle’s twisting of John 3 and my original response.

    “Jesus would not accept a relationship with Nicodemus where he simply believed; Jesus wanted Nicodemus to follow. Jesus didn’t just want Nicodemus just at night; he wanted Nicodemus during the day too.” (p. 31)

    (Jesus wants all men to simply believe. That is how a man is born again. Becoming a committed follower is part of progressive sanctification. While it is possible that Jesus wanted Nicodemus to follow, it is not how Jesus told him how to be saved. John 3:16.)

  267. jimfloyd12 says:

    Here was his error on James 2:

    “The book of James in the Bible addresses this. James wants his readers to understand biblical belief: What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? (James 2: 14– 16).” (p. 105)

    (This is a classic Calvinist misunderstanding of James. Faith in Christ alone for salvation always saves eternally. James is urging believers to use their faith for good works.)

  268. johninnc says:

    JIm, “biblical belief”? Where does the Bible ever say that James wants his readers to understand “biblical belief”

    I think Idleman doesn’t understand “biblical belief.” He thinks it is something more that “belief.”

    This is the crux of what makes Idleman a false teacher.

  269. jhainn says:

    Sir, I will check these scriptures against what my Pastor says. If what you are stating is true, I will publicly apologize. By the way, I am a girl.

  270. Curtis M says:

    my appologies i assumed you were a man .
    if i may encourage you jainn do seek counsel from pastor however please study scripture on your own .
    if your pastor does not see the clarity of the gospel along with the tenses of salvation
    justification. santification glorification how will younsee it ?

    also would like for you to point out were myself or others have attacked charachter of mr Idelman

  271. Curtis M says:

    to shew thyself
    2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    to present yourself
    2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    approved unto who ?

  272. Cathrin says:

    At first I want to apologize for my bad English. I’m very sorry and do my best.
    An hour ago I watched the movie “Not a fan” in the german Version. I believe, that our salvation is for free. God wants us and without him we cannot come to life. The movie, I understand it like that, does not bring another message. But as the Holy Bible says, there should be a Change in our lives if we become a Christian. The fans are unbelievers. Their faith is told with their lips, but there is no real Change in life. I understand the message of the movie like that, also the passages written here in the comment to the book. It doesnt preach salvation through work (I cant find the right word. I hope, you know, what I mean.). I dont understand it like that. But it makes me reflecting my own life. All the chances I havent used to tell about Jesus. All the Little things in my daily life, where I’m no Salt nor Light. I’m sure, I’m not only a fan. The salvation is for free, but it costs our old life. And many People love their old lives. It has consequences to follow Jesus. But often, we cannot hear anything about this in the preaches. Maybe it is much different in America. But here in Switzerland or in Germany, where I originally come from, you hear that Jesus is Love. Thats right, but there are many more things written about our great savior in the Bible. And we have the responsibility to preach the hole message, not only the comfortible part. I understand the message of the movie like that and that is what the bible also says. Are we able to do too much for Jesus Christ? I dont think so. We can do the false things, but never too much. Can we do too less? Yes, I guess the most of us could do more. I say this at first to me. Is my salvation away because of that? No, I dont think so. But the will to Change ervery day should exist. If I dont wanna Change, I should ask me: Am I a real Christian? Or am I only a fan?

  273. jimfloyd12 says:

    Cathrin,

    Thanks for stopping by. Please let me point out a few things. You said “But as the Holy Bible says, there should be a Change in our lives if we become a Christian. The fans are unbelievers. Their faith is told with their lips, but there is no real Change in life. I understand the message of the movie like that, also the passages written here in the comment to the book. It doesnt preach salvation through work (I cant find the right word. I hope, you know, what I mean.). ”

    The Bible no where states that a person will change their behavior if they are saved. A change a behavior is not the determining factor otherwise works are needed. Salvation is provided to all who trust Christ based on the gospel. That is it. Behavior or anything else has noting to do with whether or not you trust Christ.

    Jim F

  274. Cathrin says:

    Hi Jim, thank you very much for your answer. I hope, I understand everything right. The thing with the behaviour: If we have Christ as our saviour and the Holy Ghost is in us, we should get more and more similar to Jesus. The consequence is, that our behaviour will change. As sinners we are the opposite of Jesus good example. We have to change. The fight between the old and the new man. And others will see that. My behaviour or my good works dont save me. But they Are a sign, that really Jesus came in my life. If someone goes to church, maybe works in the church, but there are some things in his life, for example living together without beeing marriaged, than there is a doubt. Has this Person really realized the Gospel? We dont have to find out this. But we have the responsibility to tell the hole thing. I understand the movie in that way. And so it is very helpful. I guess it wasnt the intense of Kyle Idleman to make persons unsure about their salvation. But If someone has doubts, he or she can go to Jesus, read the Bible, pray. And everyone will find an answer, who is honestly searching for. I believe that.

  275. jimfloyd12 says:

    Cathrin, there is often a big misconception with the Holy Spirit. Yes we as believers have the new man and have the indwelling of the Spirit and we will grow as we walk in the Spirit putting on the new man. But it is not automatic that we will walk in the Spirit or put on the new. This has to often be a day by day even moment by moment choice. All of us as believe have both the capability to sin walking in the flesh or to obey God walking in the Spirit. If a believer neglects study of the Word and God’s commands and doesn’t show much by fruit there may be many that indeed thing he is not saved because man tends to look on the outward appearance. But we know that God sees the heart. When God sees that disobedient believer He sees not that persons sin but positionally sees Christ’s righteousness. The proof that a person is saved then is not what the person does but what the person is in Christ. ….which is righteous. So we want to know that a person has trusted Christ alone for salvation versus trying to turn from sin, commit to follow, become a committed disciple, do good works, all of which can come after conversion.

    Consider the Corinthian believers. Do they automatically obey. No, some of them were committing fornication and other sins. People like Idleman would label them as fans and proclaim them unsaved. However Paul rebuked their behavior. Same thing goes for James rebuking the believers in James chapter 4 who were basically at war with each other. Why would they be if good behavior was automatic? What about the Galatians that were saved but went back to law keeping or those rebuked in Hebrews 6? Remember that Paul instructs us I. Romans 12 how we should be a living sacrifice. He tells us in Ephesians and Colossians to put on the new man. Paul even mentions his own struggle to do right in Romans 7. It was not even automatic for him.

  276. Cathrin says:

    Hi Jim,
    I can say absolutely Yes to everything you write. I understand These verses in the same way. Automatically isnt the right word. I would say, the will to Change should be there. And this is a step by step Thing. How I wrote, I have only watched the movie. Everything you wrote above goes in the same direction of the message of the movie. One Scene in the movie is very clear. I like that Scene very much. Eric, the main character, talks with his daughter in the community Center. She is very angry about one Young woman there. Eric asks her, why she is working in the Center. She sais to her dad, because you expect this from me. / Now in my own words: I do a lot of good things and than Jesus is satisfied and everything is good. Her dad sais her: No, that is what I have to do.
    The difference is love. Love for the others or for each other. The message is: If Jesus is in your heart you love him. And because of the love to him, you will Change in a Person more and more like him. Not the good work is our salvation, it is the result of our salvation, because the love of Jesus Christ in us. Now, it is not our Task to find out, who really checked this. Only God can see in our hearts. But we can reflect our own lives. I guess this discussion goes around and around. But I think we believe the same. 🙂

  277. Curtis M says:

    Hello Cathrine
    let me ask you a question if i may
    are you ok with a soul Trusting Jesus as their saviour receiving the Free gift of eternal life and Justified before God.
    That soul goes on and never shows any outward evidence of the new life , in fact goes and lives a life of debauchery curses God and dies . Would you be Ok according to God’s Word to allow that soul entrance into Heaven based on the finished work of Christ ?

    1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

    and a rock of offence
    1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

  278. Kyle isn’t adding works to salvation. I believe, wholeheartedly, humbly and appreciately, in the doctrine of election and find no issue with this book. Although freely given, it does “cost us”, in that we surrender our will to His…our wants, our pride, our agenda…and there could also be persecution. That cost doesn’t earn our salvation, but writing about it “costing us” doesn’t contradict that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone.
    The title says “completely committed follower”. One can be a follower, a Christian, without being competely committed….that’s the point of the book. Kyle, playfully, calls them fans.
    I’ve been at Southeast for about three years (at a Southern Baptist church the previous 37). Before I joined I specifically asked Kyle about baptism, losing one’s salvation, and election. I agreed with his response that salvation was through faith, baptism a symbolic act of obedience, we couldn’t lose our salvation, and his language then (and since, in messages) basically describes election without using the word.
    Ask him yourself…

  279. jimfloyd12 says:

    Paige,

    Idleman does not just playfully call them fans. The implication given is that you are not truly a believer if you are a “fan”. Also, the reformed concept of election cannot be true if works are to be kept out of the requirement for receiving eternal life.

    Jim F

  280. I have, in his words, verbal and written in an email, that salvation is through faith alone, by grace alone. Somehow, you are misperceiving this and dispensing false information about him. Not a huge deal, I don’t suppose, but definitely inaccurate and unfortunate. I’ve read the book and don’t perceive this and, having written him in 2013, also know he doesn’t believe what is written in this blog. He even called himself a fan, describing his younger, less mature years. He didn’t also call himself a non Christian during that time. This book is decribing level of commitment, not salvation…describing surrender. We may accept Christ as Savior, but not live as he is our Lord (none of us do that perfectly, no matter where we live on the fan vs follower continuum).

    Faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone, for the glory of God alone…absolutely no works. Maybe we call it different things, but that’s what I know to be true and the only position I’ve ever heard Kyle take.

  281. Curtis M says:

    question for you personally Paige
    is salvation a gift or a reward ?

  282. jimfloyd12 says:

    Yes Paige, how does a person receive eternal life?

  283. jimfloyd12 says:

    Paige, Idleman makes his Lordship salvation stance very clear in his book and on his website in the doctrinal statement. Everyone tends to use the term grace alone and faith alone but not all people mean the same by it.

    Jim F

  284. jimfloyd12 says:

    Paige,

    Please consider that this statement is directly from Kyle Idleman’s church website in the doctrinal statement:

    “We believe the Bible teaches that one receives God’s grace by putting faith in Christ, repenting of sin, confessing Christ and being immersed into Christ”

    Now this is clearly consistent with how I took his book and is totally inconsistent with by grace alone through faith alone.

    Jim F

  285. jimfloyd12 says:

    In the baptism section you can hear Idleman and the other pastor at times talking about Lordship ideas concerning salvation. There is no question in my mind which way this church is oriented.

    Jim F

  286. jimfloyd12 says:

    This was also weird. This is their requirements for membership:

    Requirements for Membership
    1.Believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
    2.Confess your faith. (Romans 10:9)
    3.Repent of your sins. (Acts 3:19)
    4.Be baptized by immersion. (Acts 2:38)

  287. jimfloyd12 says:

    Idleman was clear about his working definition of faith.

    “If you try and separate the message of follow from the message of believe, belief dies in the process. Our churches will continue to be full of fans until we break down the dichotomy between following and believing. Following is part of believing. To truly believe is to follow.”

    You can’t understand how to receive the gift of salvation if you think to truly believe is to follow.

    Jim F

  288. johninnc says:

    Paige, you might also consider this article by pastor J.O. Hosler of Napier Parkview Baptist Church:

    http://www.freegracealliance.com/pdf/Not%20A%20Fan_bookreview_Hosler.pdf

    “If you’re going to call yourself a Christian, and that necessarily means that you’re going to do your best to follow Christ with your whole heart. It seems like an obvious connection, but saying, ‘I believe in Jesus,’ that that is more than just a mental assent or a verbal acknowledgment; but it’s a life commitment.”

    Kyle Idleman, from an interview on CBN.

    http://expreacherman.com/2013/08/10/kyle-idleman-exposed-review-by-jim-f/#comment-36192

    Paige, please consider whether the views that Idleman expresses in his book and interview are consistent with his purported belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. I don’t think that they are.

  289. I didn’t realize there were comments and am returning because I re-examined the book. To quickly answer questions… Salvation is a gift. No problem, on my end, for requirements for membership; that is for membership, not salvation. On the church’s site, if you view the “baptism” video again and don’t want to listen in its entirety, skip to 15:50. Kyle clearly states “We don’t believe being baptized is what saves you. ….an expression of your faith is to repent and be baptized.” In another video (a linked sermon) point 3 is “Baptism is an expression of faith.” at 21:47. I don’t see how Kyle & Dave could make it any clearer. It’s an act of obedience, not salvation. I just watched further and well, that’s point 4. 🙂 The “other guy” is Dave Stone, by the way, senior pastor. He’s in the 2nd sermon video below the one you watched…and again states “express that belief in baptism.” at 5:36.

    Anyway, I came on here to write that I re-examined the text and found several places in “not a fan” where Kyle is clearly communicating that this is about commitment and surrender, not salvation….or, making Him Lord, not just Savior. One is, at the bottom of page 168 Kyle refers to the “moment of salvation”. If salvation is faith+works that cannot occur in a moment. There are quite a few additional examples, but there’s a quick one for you.

    If you still are not convinced surely this is at least enough to cause you to think, “maybe I should at least be more cautious about possibly committing libel against this man…if I’m so concerned that he might be teaching a false gospel, maybe I should contact him for further clarification before possibly misrepresenting his teaching.” I think that might be a wise, considerate, discerning thing to do. What could that hurt? Being more careful? Going to the source for clarification to better ensure not misrepresenting someone?

    Thank you for reading. I do not wish to debate further~

  290. jimfloyd12 says:

    Paige, I have no desire to contact him directly concerning his false or misleading statements. He and pastor stone have already clarified many times that making Jesus Lord and master is part of their idea of faith.

  291. Curtis M says:

    2 tim 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

    so bring on the libel lawsuit You want my name and address contact sight administrator . There has been nothing that I have seen on this thread that attacks the character of Mr Idelman .
    I will defend the Gospel and any teaching that takes away from the all sufficiency of the finished work of Christ Jesus

    Paige do you realize by this statement below what you are saying ?
    please quote chapter and verse were you found this statement to be biblicaly true

    “moment of salvation”. If salvation is faith+works that cannot occur in a moment.”

  292. I mentioned nothing about a lawsuit…no need to thump your chest. Goodness…this is a cordial exchange. I was merely, hopefully, appealing to peoples’ consciences about erring on the side of caution before writing, especially when given such strong evidence of error in their perceptions in the form of their subject’s own words and writings. That’s exactly why I wrote “MAYBE I should be MORE cautious” (not implying there was no caution at all, nor that I was absolutely correct, hence the “maybe”) and “POSSIBLY commiting libel” (not accusing anyone of commiting libel, much less threatening a lawsuit….that, actually, would be unbiblical.) It was a GENTLE suggestion. Come on….

    Your quotes- I wasn’t actually writing apologetics here. I was pointing out that a blogger writing that Kyle believes faith + works is in contradiction with Kyle, himself, referring to salvation occuring in a moment. One can’t both ascribe to faith + works and believe salvation occurs in a moment…that was all. I wasn’t actually saying which one I believe to be correct. Actually, in all of this, I’m only pointing out the contradictions between what is on this blog and what Kyle says and writes, because I find it grossly misrepresentative of him.

    Wow…😳

  293. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Paige, don’t worry I do get what you are saying. But I wonder if you get what I am saying. I think I have been very clear about how Idleman indeed does teach lordship salvation. Calvinists and others will all say conversion happens in a moment but you have to watch out for the backloading to prove one is saved or that one is the “elect”. Like I said already, in that baptism video there are multiple references to making Jesus Lord and master… in order to be saved. They said that if you were unwilling to be baptized then they would assume you have never decided to make Jesus Lord and master… ie never got saved in the first place. Yes, Kyle Idleman even toward the end of that video mentions by grace alone through faith alone but the making Jesus Lord and Master thing denies it. So many preachers today are falling for that and their people just come to think that it can just all be lumped in together with no problems.

    I felt it a good idea to write about this book so that some people will see and be wary of the deception that can come from even well meaning likable people. For you, you may not ever agree with me but maybe at least one day
    you might check things out further for yourself on your own time and of your own accord.

    Jim F

  294. jimfloyd12 says:

    The other problem in my experience is that many pastors tend to become walking contradictions teaching error and truth out of each side of their mouths. The problem with the gospel though is that error makes it a false gospel. I have sat through grace sounding sermons using all of the correct words by moderate Calvinistic preachers only to hear them mess up the invitation and add additional elements to faith for the reception of the free gift of salvation.

    Jim F

  295. jimfloyd12 says:

    And just so you know I do err on the side of caution and I always do my homework though I rarely ever attempt to personally engage a person I disagree with unless I know them already. For me they have already told me what they believe in writing and in various sermons. Therefore the only way their answer to me would be any different is if enough time had passed and they came to change their mind. To my knowledge he has not altered. And if he ever recants his lordship salvation and embraces the clear grace gospel then I will remove the blog post :). I am just not going to hold my breath on that. if he does change his mind it will likely take a lot of convincing. I have tried to reason with pastors like that before.

    Jim F

  296. jimfloyd12 says:

    Curtis, God bless your zeal but just relax at little bit.

    Jim F

  297. jimfloyd12 says:

    This particular post continues to get good traffic. So to that end I would like you all to consider a comment that one person made having read the book. I just found this on a comment thread online:

    “I started reading a book yesterday called “Not a Fan:Becoming a completely committed follower of Jesus Christ”. In the book the author makes the following statement:

    “There is no forgiveness without repentance. There is no salvation without surrender. There is no life without death. There is no believing without committing.”

    The part that bugs me is the part about no salvation without surrender. Surrendering all is a very difficult thing for me and I guess I find it hard to believe that I am not saved if I am not surrendered. I mean was the thief on the cross surrendered? Isn’t salvation just by Grace alone and absolutely nothing from me? I guess my thought is that surrender is something a Christian does after they are saved and not part of being saved. What do you experts think?”

    Does anyone not still see the problem when people read this book?

    Jim F

  298. I appreciate what seems to be a good motive and we are going to disagree. All the best ~

  299. jimfloyd12 says:

    Welcome, thanks for coming by.

  300. Brad says:

    Hi Jim,
    I was wondering if you feel that the people in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-27 are saved? And, is there a difference between the two examples? Isn’t receiving believing?

  301. Brad says:

    Strong arm John…

  302. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad,

    I see Heb 6:4-6 as talking about saved people. They needed to go on to grow in the faith as they ought. Instead they were bogged down in law keeping and their behavior was putting god to an open shame. They weren’t growing as they should have done. see verse 1

    For the 10:26-27 passage is think it might be a bit different. Look down also at the last verse.

    Jim F

    Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

  303. Brad says:

    Ok thanks Jim,

    I appreciate your patience. I didn’t know if it was referring to the same group. I guess it’s two examples. Can you see how LS could make a case for this? Received? They can also say true saving faith won’t “Draw back.”

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”

    Preston from ex preacher man said soil 2 believers were saved in Luke 8:13, because it says they “Received” the word.

    VS 26 says they “Received” the knowledge of the truth as well. So that argument doesn’t hold up. It does say they believe though in Luke. I agree with Preston, but you can see it can be difficult to defend what we believe sometimes.

    (Preston from ex preacher man)
    SOIL # 2 – First, did they believe???? YES; it reads “for a while BELIEVE”.

    Second, it also reads they “received” the Word with Joy.
    – John 1 – as many as RECEIVED Him, to them……..salvation is about receiving.

    Brad

  304. jimfloyd12 says:

    Yes. Heb 6 is a difficult passage and so is 10. The case can also be made that 10 is also talking about believers because it says they were sanctified. So then perdition would not mean eternal damnation but physical consequences and loss of privilege/ reward at the Bema.

  305. jimfloyd12 says:

    I would agree with Preston about the parable of the sower. Jesus give the interpretation and it is clear that the first was an unbeliever but the others were believers, some not fruitful and other varying degrees of fruitful.

    Jim F

  306. jimfloyd12 says:

    They can try all they want to say truth saving faith will or won’t do something but it is never how the Bible describes it. Faith is simply trusting Christ alone to save based on the gospel. Faith in this object always saves. But we can never say something will or won’t happen in progressive sanctification simply because faith has occurred. New believers need to be instructed and mentored and shown how to grow. Those in Heb 6 are examples of this. So much so that they were actually putting God in a shameful light.

    Jim F

  307. Brad says:

    It seems to me that perdition is a direct contrast here to “The saving of the soul.” But yes, as believers we can never draw back to perdition, so this must be talking about unbelievers. But what does “Draw back” mean? I guess they received the knowledge, but didn’t “Believe the knowledge.”

    39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    Brad

  308. jimfloyd12 says:

    The question to ask is: Is this talking in terms of physical life or eternal life?

  309. jimfloyd12 says:

    Interesting question on Heb 10. I will give you a more reasoned thought out response tomorrow.

    Jim F

  310. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim.. it is talking about the saving of the “soul.” Seems to me it’s eternal ramifications.
    Brad

  311. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, that was was my first thought as well as far as the last verse. But I believe this was offered in contrast to the previous verse. 10:26 is addressed to believer. Paul (most likely the writer) includes held in the “we”. The “we” refers to truly saved people. So basically truly saved people could fall back into law keeping and Judaism but if they do they can look for correction and God will be displeased but will never lose eternal life. In contrast, people that hear the truth but reject will face perdition and the eternal punishment.

    So 10:26 is just like the warning in 6:6

    Hope that helps. I can see why people try to use this to support a lordship view but the proof is not there based on the actual text

  312. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim.. I agree. I just emailed Pastor Tom Cuzcuzza, and he thinks they are both saved. I just don’t know exactly what “Draw Back” would mean? I guess it means they would never have believed but heard. All the Jews in Jerusalem were destroyed in 70 AD. So, if hearers of the word “drew back” to Judaism, they were destroyed.

  313. Brad says:

    Jim,

    Here are some excellent notes on the subject from Pastor Cucuzza. He just sent them over…

    Brad,

    Here are my notes on that section:

    Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Trodden under foot the Son of God. Imagine to walk all over God Himself! How proud!

    Counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and unholy thing. Was sanctified: These are saved people! Only saved people have been sanctified.

    Done despite or insulted the Spirit of grace.

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

    Notice it says, we know Him. There is no question these people are saved.

    The Lord shall judge who? HIS PEOPLE.

    Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    fearful: phoberos, fob-er-os’; from Greek 5401 (phobos); frightful, terrible.

    God does not always take the life of a rebellious believer, but He always deals with him. And it is always out of love.

    In the city of Pottsville, PA., the broken end of a high voltage wire was lying upon the pavement, along which the engineer of the electric plant, Mr. Hildebrand, was walking, unmindful of the fact. A person by the name of Mr. Schlitzer saw the danger and yelled to warn him. Picking up a stone, he threw it and hit Mr. Hildebrand on the chest. He looked up and avoided the wire just as he was about to step on it. With tears streaming down his face he thanked Schlitzer for saving his life.

    3. The exhortation to God’s children. V.32-39.

    Hebrews 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
    33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
    34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
    35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

    This sounds just like chapter 6 when they were warned about falling away. Notice what he says to these believers: don’t quit! Stay with it and stay on track, for there is great reward for the believer who does!

    Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

    Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

    Patience: endurance. If they would endure, they would receive the full reward that the Lord desired for them. They would also fulfill the purpose for which He had saved them.

    37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
    38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
    39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    Perdition: Destruction or waste.

    Saving: preservation. This is not the usually word for saving. Soul: life. soul 58 times. life 40 times. This speaks of a life that is delivered from destruction.

    Salvation is another matter. It has been provided for us through the sacrificial payment Jesus made for our sins. It is free and costs us nothing.
    Tom

  314. Brad says:

    You know, I might have to disagree with Pastor Tom on just the last part, but maybe he’s right. I think the whole passage is in fact talking about believers, but then Paul throws a little curve ball and speaks of non believers at the end. It seems to be a separate thought all together. But, all the negatives he speaks of above that, I don’t think defines “Draw back” undo perdition. Just backsliding for the believer. I think he is talking about hell for the non believer at the end. We as believers can “draw back” as far as backsliding, but we can never “draw back” unto perdition (or hell). But again, maybe Pastor Tom is right.

  315. jimfloyd12 says:

    Draw back there to me is going back to the law and sacrifices. Which by the way is what much of Hebrews is against. This would to me be willful sin believers are being exhorted not to be part of. So in essence as draw back from grace to law.

    Jim F

  316. Brad says:

    Yes Jim I agree. That’s what I meant by backsliding. Backsliding back to law instead of grace, but I think the point Paul is trying to make is that even though believers can backslide back to law they are always saved. But, unbelievers (them) can backslide/ “draw back” to perdition/hell if they hear and never believe and go back to law. We are Not of “Them” Them.. meaning unbelievers. ?

    “39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

  317. Curtis M says:

    Believing Hebrews being told to quit being religeous Hebrews performing there rituals as the sign of the coming Messiah. The Messiah Jesus has come and ” By HIMSELF” made offering ONCE Purged our sin debt . and SAT Down . Its over there is no more sacrifice for sin . Knock it off already and believe the Gospel.

    by himself
    Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Here is a thought that has been chewing on me . I once equated Carnally minded to mean sinful thoughts of the flesh/mind . I am now being persuaded that to be carnally minded is to try and earn Gods favor by works , to earn Gods righteousness for justification
    all of the Works for salvation (justification) is of the Carnal mind ,
    Further thoughts on this ?

    For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

  318. Brad says:

    Hi Jim, this is how it starts. Rude comments like that of Curtis that don’t even relate to the topic. Curtis, I believe the gospel ok? I’m saved by grace alone through faith ok? Have you ever doubted your salvation? If you say you haven’t, you lie. Anybody who has doubted their salvation has fallen into the LS trap. You are no exception. You are the one who needs to knock it off, because you can barely construct a sentence. Every time you post, I have to sit there and strain my brain to try and figure out what you are saying. I came here to Jim’s blog to get answers and get away from yours and John’s constant combativeness, and if he thinks I’ve dwelt on one subject too much, he can gladly let me know, and I will come back later on another topic. Jim has been very helpful, so please don’t ruin his respectfulness. Last question Jim before I was rudely interrupted, then I will pause and come back later. Specifically, who do you think the “Them” that draw back are? in vs 39 Believers or un believers?

    Brad

  319. Curtis M says:

    Believing Hebrews being told
    whoops that last comment was related to the Hebrews when i said knock it off , not to anyone else.

    Yes, License , Legalism , mysticism , staying out of the ruts of either or all three is why I need to continually present myself to the Lord in my thinking

  320. Curtis M says:

    vs 39 , both believers and unbelievers

    perdition= ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): –

  321. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad,

    Let’s relax on John and Curtis and give them some grace. They are like minded believers. I don’t think Curtis’s comment was intended to be rude and let’s not get on people about sentence structure or whatever else.

    As to your question, I believe that there are two options. I see it currently as 39 talking about unbelievers drawing back to perdition as opposed to believers in vs 38. If you define perdition as simply destruction versus damnation and soul as life versus living eternal soul then Tom’s view is also very possible. Either is consistent with the obvious truth of grace recorded elsewhere in scripture.

    Jim F

  322. Brad says:

    Understood Jim.. Apologies to Curtis for his mistype. (Section edited by admin) Yes, I agree both views on that are possible and still under truth of grace. I wish I knew exactly what Paul meant, but I’ll know someday. Thanks again Jim.

    Brad

  323. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, I trust you will keep looking into the interpretation of the verses in Hebrews 10. At the end of the day it matters what you and the Holy Spirit decide. I say give it some time. As a side note, please also consider forgiving those you feel may have slighted you in some fashion. I understand there was some contention on another site. But I’ll try to keep it that from coming up here. I like to try to stick just to the issues at hand with the given texts or questions. This is not just for my sake but readers and visitors. Thanks, praying for you.
    Jim F

  324. Brad says:

    Thank You Jim. I have already forgiven them. You are in my prayers as well.
    Brad

  325. Brad says:

    Hi Jim I thought I would get your thoughts on if you think belief can “Stop.” Yankee Arnold had a video about faith without works being dead, but he said dead faith was not really dead but dormant like a car battery. Basically useless. Pastor C pretty much said the same thing. Isn’t faith the same thing as belief? So, can’t faith/belief be dormant like a car battery until Christ’s return or when we go to be with Him? If it “Stops,” the person would have to believe all over again and thus become a believer again. Is that possible?

  326. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Brad,

    Please bear with me and hear me out on this.

    Yes, I would basically say that a person can technically stop believing after they have already trusted Christ as Savior. But even if they do they are still saved. We are not kept saved only so long as we keep believing. All people who trust Christ alone to save them are that instant regenerated, sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day or redemption, and covered by the blood of Christ having His righteousness forever imputed to us.

    The scenario of a true believer denying their own faith to me is not very likely to occur. But if grace is indeed without merit then it shows the true depth of the grace and love and compassion of God to save someone undeserving and disobedient. This is an extreme example that is hard to ever truly prove but in theory would be true. It would be hard to prove because you have to first be able to prove 100 percent that the person ever believed in the first place. This is impossible for us as humans. I would guess that 70+ percent of people that say they have walked away from the faith and reject God altogether never believed in the first place. They most likely trusted something other than Christ alone or they trusted Christ plus their own merits. The others probably got sick of the false Lordship bondage fear and legalism and rejected that view of God having never been properly discipled on how to live the Christian life. Some don’t get discipled after receiving eternal life but get discipled by the world where error abounds. The get carried away with worldly pursuits and philosophy never really learning from their Father as they ought.

    Paul said that Demas had forsaken him having loved this present world. Would Demas have ceased to be a believer because of this choice? No, but he will miss out on eternal blessings and reward that could have been his. This to me is like the parable of the sower were the seed grows but is eventually choked out by weeds. This believer is unfruitful in this life having chosen other things first than God.

    James 2 is where I have heard Tom C’s car battery analogy before and I think it is a pretty good way for us to conceptualize it. So let’s be clear. James is talking to believers about how they should use their faith for the good of others. In doing so they are a good testimony to the lost and glorify God their Father. To fail in this area is to displease the Father. When it says their faith is “dead” meaning useless it is in context of their ongoing faith to produce something beneficial for others. Not that it proves that their initial faith was useless to receive the free gift of eternal life.

    You asked, “Isn’t faith the same thing as belief?”

    Yes, but in context of what? Is it faith in relation to believing the gospel for the first time thereby receiving the gift of eternal life or ongoing faith in our Christian walk? Peter teaches us to add things to our faith. James says to use it and tells how God helps us to grow through trials. For example take the name of this blog – Standforthefaith.com. By “faith” there I mean the noun form meaning our set of Christian beliefs as described in the Bible. Dictionary.com has this under the noun form of faith:

    “5. a system of religious belief:
    the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.”

    You asked:
    “So, can’t faith/belief be dormant like a car battery until Christ’s return or when we go to be with Him?”

    Yes, that is what we are saying. As far as our faith in the Christian life, it can indeed be dead just like it was for those James 2 believers. That is why we are told not to be like that. The Galatians that were believers but went back to law keeping were still saved but were in practice denying the very God that bought them. Same for the Hebrews believers mentioned in Heb 6. They were not moving on to maturity but had also been caught up in legalistic ritual. They as believers we living in such a way as to put their heavenly father to an open shame. It could be said that they were not glorifying God.

    You asked:
    “If it “Stops,” the person would have to believe all over again and thus become a believer again. Is that possible?”

    Remember that this is somewhat hypothetical because we can’t know if they believed in the first place or even if they truly don’t believe now. I myself can know now if I believe or not but I can’t know for another person. That said, it would be like a change of mind. This does not mean they are getting saved again but that they are repenting back to the faith that they are supposed to be holding. This happens all the time in less extreme forms in the lives of believers. Any believer can start to doubt or question any of God’s truths but there is always the possibility of changing our mind about that particular thing and coming back into proper fellowship with our heavenly father. Can believers be out of proper fellowship and still be saved? Yes.

    I hope this helps answer your questions. The keys to understanding this are grace and faith.

    Jim F

  327. jimfloyd12 says:

    Consider also some verse from 2 Timothy.

    2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself

    2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
    2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
    2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (Some people did believe and their faith destroyed by this lie. But they would still be saved. See also 1 Cor 15)
    2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
    2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
    2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work. (Not all believers will be vessels unto honor)

    2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith (noun):
    2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
    2Ti 4:9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
    2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world (Demas was unprofitable to Paul), and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
    2Ti 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry. (Mark however was profitable)

    Jim F

  328. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim, I see what you are saying. The car battery can basically be recharged for service but not for salvation again. But, the saving faith is always there. It’s just “Dead” or has “Stopped.” When you put it that way, it makes sense. Dormant to me means dead in the sense of “Useless” in Tom and Yankee’s analogy. But stopped can work too.

    Brad

  329. Curtis M says:

    the power of God unto salvation
    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    when they knew God, they glorified him not as God ( they dint want to know the God they knew)
    Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

  330. jimfloyd12 says:

    Curtis, that could more likely be referring to unsaved people that suppress the truth as revealed by general revelation. I would say that knowing who God is can be different than knowing Him as your personal Savior.

    Jim F

  331. Brad says:

    Hi Jim,

    Back for some more insight. My question is on the parable of the talents. Some people think it’s a reference to the Judgment seat of Christ, and some people think it’s about our personal talents, but I believe it’s about salvation and service. I think it’s about service as a believer but hell for the non believer. The one who only puts the talent on deposit is somebody who simply believes and is saved without service works. I personally believe we will all hear “Well done good and faithful servant,” though, but it will mean more to some than others. Jesus said even if you give a cup of cold water you won’t lose your reward. Hypothetically, a Christian could do “No” good work (only put soul on deposit) after he is saved, but I think that’s a pure hypothetical. What are your thoughts on this? Of course the fearful servant went to hell (outer darkness), because he never did the bare minimum and put his soul on deposit which requires No work.

    Brad

  332. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad,

    One thing to remember is that no believers (saved people) will ever be in danger of hell or outer darkness. So then the person in that story that hid his talent is the same that never believes.

    The parable is not about the bema but rather entering the kingdom (specifically for Jews). Some will do so as believers with varying levels of abundance of reward. While unbelievers get nothing but destruction and ongoing punishment. This is in context of the sheep and goats judgment (I believe) at the end of the tribulation for those that remain to the end alive. The believers will be ushered in and the rest (goats) meet their destruction and ongoing fate.

    The bema seat judgment is like a reward ceremony for believers.

    Jim F

  333. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim, Charles Stanley has a strange outer darkness belief, so I was hoping you didn’t have that thought. I don’t believe the Judgment Seat of Christ has anything to do with sin. That was dealt with on the cross, and He’s not going to go “Back” as far as the east is from the west to dig it up again for the Judgment seat of Christ. To tell us to completely forget our sins only to tell us that we will have to remember them again at The Judgment seat of Christ, could only be a contradiction, and there are no contradictions in the Bible. Like you said, I think it’s a reward type ceremony for good only, but we will all put our crowns at Jesus’ feet anyway, so we will all end up sharing everything for His glory. I know there are differences of opinion over hierarchy in heaven among believers, but I think that will be just a case of order. Nobody in the body of Christ will or should be seen as more important than anybody else other than Christ Himself who is the head. (1 Cor 12:12-22) Also, if we are to serve the Lord forever, will we not get to earn more rewards throughout eternity? Pastor Arnold pretty much summed it up in saying it will be a gains minus losses type of thing. When we sin, we fall short of rewards we could have received, but the sin won’t be the focus of the Judgment seat of Christ only the glory we gave Him on earth. I know some might disagree, but I believe that in 1 Cor 3:15 the wood, hay and stubble is our sins. Anything opposite of sin, is God’s will for our lives. The opposite of sin is righteousness. So, why would He burn up any good work/righteousness? Also, the hypothetical believer in this passage is “Saved” right after the wood, hay, and stubble is burned up. At what point is a person “Saved?” The thief on the cross was “Saved” the moment he took his last breath. We are “Saved” from hell. That’s what salvation is the purpose of. So, everything bad was burned up, and he entered into paradise. Also, I think we will be rewarded for good deeds we did before we believed. Not that I believe in predestination, but when we believed, all our good deeds were credited to the new man. He knew who His children were before we believed, so I feel He was proud of the good things we did even before we believed, because He knew we would become believers. I digress… Anyway, I don’t know what “Saved” would mean other than from hell in 1 Cor 3:15. Some might say “Saved from shame” at the judgment seat of Christ? That couldn’t be the case, because those who might disagree with me would say shame is the purpose “Of” the the Judgment seat of Christ for those who weren’t better servers of Christ. So, I feel the sin is what is burned up in 1 Cor 3:15. It’s the result of what Jesus did for us on the cross. Everything else will be celebrated later. The flames of Judgment are here on earth for believers up until the point that we go to be with Him. 1 Peter 4:17. It is the sanctification process before the rewards ceremony. We will Not be judged for our sins. John 5:24 But, we Will be sanctified from our sins. Heb 10:14.

    Brad

  334. jimfloyd12 says:

    1. You said, “I don’t believe the Judgment Seat of Christ has anything to do with sin. That was dealt with on the cross, and He’s not going to go “Back” as far as the east is from the west to dig it up again for the Judgment seat of Christ.”

    (This is correct in a way. However, sin done in this life does affect the overall amount of good works you have to be tried. I believe sin can also affect the quality of some of the works in that when they are tried by fire the may be found to be as valuable (wood, hay, stubble) because there were sinful motives and or attitudes involved when doing them.)

    I don’t think we are going to be reminded of specific sins at the Bema but we will understand by the amount of rewards left that we could have possibly done better. Yes, we basically put it all at his feet. We will want to have as much as we can to place there to honor Him. We will at that point want to hear “well done”.

    2. You said, “Nobody in the body of Christ will or should be seen as more important than anybody else other than Christ Himself who is the head. (1 Cor 12:12-22)”

    (I really do see it the same way. I believe there is one bride of Christ. I don’t see a positional hierarchy but there maybe more for one to present at Christ’s feet than others and there may be more responsibility given to someone during the millenium (debatable) but all are heirs and have the same position in Christ. )

    You said, “Also, if we are to serve the Lord forever, will we not get to earn more rewards throughout eternity?”

    (I don’t believe so. I believe the time to earn rewards is now.)

    “Pastor Arnold pretty much summed it up in saying it will be a gains minus losses type of thing. When we sin, we fall short of rewards we could have received, but the sin won’t be the focus of the Judgment seat of Christ only the glory we gave Him on earth. I know some might disagree, but I believe that in 1 Cor 3:15 the wood, hay and stubble is our sins.”

    (I would agree with Yankee. I would see the wood, hay, and stubble as good works affected by sin to possibly even sin itself. I think a lot of it is going to be time waste kind of things that we did that may not have been sinful in themselves but had no real eternal value.)

    We are saved the moment we believe however we don’t receive our glorified bodies till heaven. The passage is saying that a person can be saved with no good works to speak of yet so as by fire.

    “Also, I think we will be rewarded for good deeds we did before we believed.”

    I don’t see a scriptural reason to assume so. I believe is a reward for what we did as believers.

    “Anyway, I don’t know what “Saved” would mean other than from hell in 1 Cor 3:15. Some might say “Saved from shame” at the judgment seat of Christ?

    (Yes, it is saying that person is saved from hell yet no rewards. It is not about shaming someone. Yet that person may indeed wish at that point that they had more to show for their life as a believer.)

    “The flames of Judgment are here on earth for believers up until the point that we go to be with Him. 1 Peter 4:17. It is the sanctification process before the rewards ceremony. “

    (The reward ceremony itself has flames that try the works then we get to present what is left to the Lord.

    Progressive sanctification now is something different.)

    “We will Not be judged for our sins”
    Right we will not be judged for our sins. That judgement is placed on Christ.

    Jim F

  335. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim, I agree with almost all of what you stated except for a few things. If works are done “With sinful motives” (Mark 7:21), then they are not works at all. They are sin. As far as the flames in Heaven part, I can’t really comprehend that. Part of our judgment has to be on earth according to 1 Peter 4:17. I believe it’s our daily conviction / sanctification “Flames” up until the point that we die, but it’s not for our sins per se. That was taken care of on the cross. I know we are saved the moment we believe, but when the hypothetical person is “Saved” (from hell) in 1 Cor 3:15 it comes “After” the flames, because he “Escapes” through them and then is saved. We don’t get saved again in heaven. I don’t see this part of the Judgment seat of Christ being anywhere but on earth as we pass from this life to the next. Just the rewards part will be in heaven. The thief on the cross was ultimately saved “This day.” I don’t see how flames and paradise mix.

    Brad

  336. Brad says:

    Hi Jim,

    Here is a tough one that a LS guy just threw at me. I hope you can help me out real quick. Heb 6:9 “But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.” He said good works must accompany salvation. He said “Look it says it right there in Hebrews!” How do I combat this? I know they should accompany salvation, but this scripture appears as if they are a must.

    Brad

  337. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, going back to your earlier comment, the bema seat is a specific judgment that takes place in heaven and not here on earth.

    As for Heb 6:9, this passage is dealing with believers that were indeed falling to do the right kind of works. They had stalled in a sense and had not gone on to the maturity they should have progressed to by now. So this is why verse one says,

    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    So verse 9 starts a section of hope for their progress. Remember that verse 8 is also referring to these believers. We have to go back and look at 5:12.

    What problems did they have?

    Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
    Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
    Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
    Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

  338. jimfloyd12 says:

    So if works accompany salvation as your calvinist friend suggests then these believers were in danger of having lost salvation. But as in Heb 10, this is not the case. Salvation can’t be lost.

    Jim F

  339. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim. So, I guess I should just tell him works “Should” accompany salvation but are not required. These guys I have been debating believe repentance is a change of mind about Christ, but they believe faith is the gift of Eph 2:8-9 and that it must be a “Pregnant faith” that births good works and the repentance must be granted by God as well. So, if you are lucky enough you might get this “Gift” of true saving faith and repentance that will in fact have good works birthed from it. lol I get tired of debating this strange doctrine, but they have videos all over the web. I feel like I need to. I agree that The Judgment Seat of Christ is in fact in Heaven but only for rewards. I don’t see how one is “Saved” from hell after they are already in Heaven. There is no danger of hell once we are there or after we believed. But, the realization of our salvation from hell happens the moment we die or are raptured not after The Judgment Seat of Christ. I don’t think anybody knows for certain what it will be like exactly. I know it will be good though. Jesus our redeemer will be there, and we will forever be with Him.

    Brad

  340. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad,

    It is not so much thatworks should accompany salvation as in an automatic result but that that those that are born again should by reason of God’s revealed will, do good works. Eph 2:10

    However, we must be careful to notewhat the word salvation is referring to in various passages. 70% of the time it is talking about delieverance from something other than eternal damnation. I think in this context the salvation could more likely be in relation to these believers being saved from the physical death etc that could befall them should they continue to neglect to grow as they ought putting God their savior to an open shame. This is similar to the punishment mentioned in Heb 10 for those that sinned willfully going back against the truth they had believed to their old legalistic ways.

    THe Calvinists love to sayfaith is the gift but they miss that salvation itself is the gift received by faith (belief). The Holy Spirit gives birth to those that believe. Calvinists that are stating as you mention are probably too far gone for any debate. They simply need to repent and believe God’s Word.
    No one is saved for hell after they are in heaven because if they are in heaven then they are already saved.

    We can realized we are saved now this moment based on who we trust it for it. We, unlike the Calvinists, do not have to wait.

    Jim F

  341. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim agreed. I was wondering today if somebody simply believes John 3:16 is that enough for salvation? Or, does one have to understand the finished work on the cross? For example, If somebody was about to die and they never heard the gospel message, but they were just scared of the unknown of death and somebody told them to believe in Jesus of the bible and He will give you eternal life. If they believed that by faith, would He save them? I think He would. I’ve been working on gospel tracts, and I have been wanting to put the precise message on them so salvation can be made simple for people.

    Brad

  342. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, I believe we should share the good news of the cross seeing that Christ’s atonement is now an accomplished feat. Christ then is indeed the one a person must trust in for eternal life because He being God was perfect, yet became sin for us, died for us, and now is risen. Trust Him today as your Savior. You can share this good news with any unbeliever in a short concise way without having to be cross-less. I would reject the crossless view of Wilkin and Hodges. We need to know that it is finished.

    Jim F

  343. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim, yea Wilkin is kind of out there. I’ve just always wondered exactly what needs to be believed to be saved. You ask 10 grace believers and you get 10 different answers. lol I used to work with special needs people and some of them loved Jesus, and I don’t think they had the slightest idea of the concept of the cross. They just lit up when you would talk to them about Jesus. So, I struggle with what exactly needs to be believed. God knows people’s hearts. I think 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is sufficient, but depending on the person and their life situation, God’s, grace may be more broad. Please pray God gives me peace about it, because it is a struggle.

    Brad

  344. jimfloyd12 says:

    Yeah, special needs people may be different for each. Some depending on the need may not be accountable similar to babies that are not developed enough to know the truths. I would just share with them simple concepts of Jesus Christ is God, that He died for us on the cross, and that He is risen again. He did this to save us from the penalty of our sins against Him. We are saved from this penalty the moment we trust Him to save us based on this gospel. Any person trusting Christ to saved must understand that the penalty of their sin is satisfied in Christ’s atonement. If they don’t understand this then questions remain as to their eternal destiny. If we can somehow lose it or prove we never had it or have to believe plus anything else then our destiny remains unsettled and it was not finished at the cross.

    I trust Him that He died for me and that settles it. I am as secure as Christ is God.

    Hope that helps,

    Jim F

  345. Brad says:

    Hi Jim yes that helps. I don’t think it’s wrong to ask what’s the bare minimum that needs to be believed to be saved seeing that it’s not about works anyway. So, what would the bare minimum be? Also, I’ve been thinking about Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” “Strive” seems to imply effort/works. I know salvation isn’t by works. But, L/S people can spin this very well into “pre works” before salvation. How would you combat this?

    Brad

  346. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad,

    It is not so much about a minimum. That is slightly the wrong way to think of it. We need to know that Jesus Christ the Son of God died for us on the cross shedding His blood. It follows that He died and is risen again. We trust Him to save us based on who He is and what He has done.

    Striving in that verse does not mean doing good works, turning from sins, or the like. It means to aim for the one accepted entrance. For this you need to compare scripture with scripture. The Bible repeatedly mentions that our salvation is not by works of righteousness or anything of the like. It is purchased by Christ and received by us through faith.

    Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5

    Jim F

  347. jimfloyd12 says:

    Here is how ExP puts it:

    This is a general outline of God’s plan of salvation in His Word. We give it here as a brief outline which we use when we speak to others about Jesus Christ:
    1.Establish the fact that all men are sinners. Romans 3:10; Romans 3:23; Isaiah 64:6; Jeremiah 17:9; James 2:10.
    2.Establish the fact that the penalty of sin is death. Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:20.
    3.Establish the fact that you must be perfect to enter heaven. Revelation 21:27.
    4.Establish the fact that man can do nothing of himself to obtain this perfection. Ephesians 2:8,9; Galatians 2:16; Romans 4:5.
    5.Show how God provided a sin-bearer, Jesus Christ [God in the flesh], and imputes to man His righteousness. II Corinthians 5:21; Phil. 3:9; Isaiah 53:6; I Peter 3:18.
    6.Establish the fact that man needs only believe/trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Savior for salvation. John 3:16; John 1:12; Acts 16:31.
    7.Establish the fact that man can be absolutely certain of his salvation now, and that his salvation cannot be lost because eternal life is eternal, a guarantee from God. John 6:37-39; John 10:28; I Peter 1:5; Hebrews 10:10-14; I John 5:13.

  348. Brad says:

    Hi Jim, Thanks, that’s just a lot of stuff to put on a tract that might just get thrown in the trash. We live in an instant society and people don’t want to have to read a long list of things. That’s why I was wondering the minimum. When I make a tract out there is always somebody saying you should or shouldn’t have put something on it. It never satisfies the picky believer. For instance, I could put all of what you wrote on my tract and some yahoo Christian will say… but you left out the Trinity! Good grief… lol

  349. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, anything put in a tract may just get thrown in the trash. Most tracts I have ever seen contain much more than that anyway and many of them present a false message in some form or another. People really don’t want to consider any hard truths but the solution is not to cater to their fallen propensities. The thing is that most people have preconceived notions that they need to be educated on and change their mind about. Think of the Jews. Many of them rejected Jesus Christ as God and as their Messiah thinking he was just a man. They preferred their religiousness and law keeping over trusting Him alone for salvation. They also thought salvation could be inherited in a way aside from trusting Christ alone such as the rich young ruler. Of course the good news of Christ’s atonement is not relevant to those how think they need no physician or do not need saving. You can tell people like this to trust Christ alone for salvation all you want but they need to first be convinced that they need saving. The bottom line is that one must trust Christ alone for salvation. However, the gospel has content behind that. Does a person have to understand the Trinity or end times or the rest, no, but they can believe things that would nullify the gospel. For example, if I believe that I as a sinner can be saved by my efforts plus Christ’s then I am not saved until I change my mind trusting Christ alone. If I believe that I am a sinner but that there is no resurrection from the dead then I don’t have a risen Savior and therefore I am doomed to my sins and religion is vain. If I believe that Jesus Christ is not God then I don’t have a Savior. If I don’t believe He died for me then I don’t have a Savior (many Calvinists don’t believe he died for all). Do you see how boiling it down right away is not always the approach to take for a given person. “Trust in Jesus Christ alone for eternal salvation.” It may be a fine opening statement but will need some explanation. And it is a fine closing statement after any needed explanations.

    “Yahoo” Christians can say whatever they want but we are to base what we do off of God’s Word. I suggest looking up how Paul proclaimed the gospel and defended or explained it.

    Jim F

  350. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim, I truly appreciate you taking time to respond. I of course believe the true gospel, but it’s not always easy to defend what we believe. Scripture says we need to have an answer ready for all who doubt and question our faith, so that is why I diligently seek the answers to hard questions in scripture. I want to be fully prepared. I think John 3:16 combined with 1 Cor 15:1-5 pretty much covers all your points. I will continue to pray for the perfect concise, simple message for my tracts. Please pray the Lord gives me the right message to put on them. I don’t want to put anything misleading or false by adding or leaving something off.

    Brad

  351. jimfloyd12 says:

    Yes, I typically go to those verse first because they get right to the point and cover what is needed. I am glad to hear about your effort with the tracts.

    Dr Ralph Yankee Arnold has some good concise ways with wording things concerning the gospel. I think he even uses one in an illustrations in one of the messages of his that I have post on my conference pages.

    Jim F

  352. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim, I listen to Yankee a lot. Off the point.. I’m struggling with a scripture right now. 2 Cor 13:5 “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” L/S use this to say works should prove salvation. I looked on ExP and their explanation wasn’t clear. I think Paul is saying that in order to prove to them that Christ is speaking through him, (vs 3) to check themselves to see if Christ is in fact in them. Basically he’s saying… “well look at yourselves.. isn’t Christ in you? well, there you go…” Maybe I’m wrong.

  353. jimfloyd12 says:

    Paul is basically saying there that they all believe in the same Savior. Instead of questioning Paul and his authenticity, Paul tells them to consider themselves and realize they all trust in the same person. Nowhere does it say that this examining is an examination of good works in their lives. Paul further goes on to say that He trusts that they will realize the trust in Him as well.

    2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

    Another reason to realize the examination was not about works is verse 7.

    2Co 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

    Jim F

  354. jimfloyd12 says:

    “well look at yourselves.. isn’t Christ in you? well, there you go…” This is an adequate way to see it.

    Remember that Calvinists tend to major on proof texts taken out of context. They also tend to read their own self created principles back into any context they like. You will see this tactic often if you spend any amount of time around them.

    Jim F

  355. Ryan says:

    Isn’t part of examination of yourself and works to look at your motives. Works are not wrong but they do not save you or add anything to your salvation. I like to look at it this way if I’m working to be seen by those around me then what was the point. If I’m doing things out of a genuine love for the God who saved a sinner like me then that’s a different story. It shouldn’t matter if anyone every sees you, my only goal is to further His message.

    Someone please chime in if I am way off base

  356. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan, it depends what you are examining. Are you examining what you believe or are you examining you motives for works that you have done? The two are not exactly the same. Yes, we should not work for the praise of men but the praise of our heavenly Father.

    Jim F

  357. Ryan says:

    Jim thank you for the reply. If I am examining what I believe then my objective is to fall in line with the Word (and just not the portions I want). I see a challenge for all of us in lining our thinking up with His word.
    When I think about the Calvinist, I don’t know that they actually believe they are looking at Word out of its context. The truth is most Calvinist are very good at saying well you have to read it in its context and then trying to explain everything based on the Greek. When we read John 3:16 they will say things like…This phrase “to believe in” means more than mere intellectual assent to the claims of the gospel. It includes trust and commitment to Christ as Lord and Savior, which results in receiving a new nature that produces a change in heart and obedience to the Lord. Now on the surface what they say feels right; however, they dismiss the fact that one can and will still sin.
    So I guess Jim the idea is to look at all parts of my life knowing that I am still full of sin. Because the truth is if I was not much of a sinner I wouldn’t have needed much of Christ. The idea of leading others to Christ and teaching them to be His follower is great but we must not overstep and make complete obedience a requirement for salvation. Sorry to have run on and on just had some thoughts on the whole issue.

    Thank you all for your commitment to discussion.

  358. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ryan,

    Your example about John 3:16 illustrates my point. Many don’t know that they are reading things in to the context but that is the nature of deception. You are right that we should not make complete obedience a requirement for salvation but let us make sure we are not adding in any step of obedience. What we need is obedience to the gospel which means to receive through faith. We should never let fifty cent terms like “intellectual assent” scare us into false teaching.

    Jim F

  359. Ryan says:

    You are correct sir, obedience (rule following) is not any part of salvation.

  360. Brad says:

    Yea Ryan, Calvinists like to twist the word belief into an on going “Committed” belief. As we can see in Romans 4:5, there is absolutely no work in believing, and it is a one time trust in Christ for salvation. It is working “not.” Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Belief for salvation does mean you trust Jesus. Believing “on” implies trust, and it is a choice. When somebody believes the gospel, they choose to put their trust in Christ for their eternal future.

    I’ve been struggling with Luke 8:21 “And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.” This comes right after the example of the 4 soils. I know works can’t prove salvation, but since we are children of God, won’t we hear the word and “Do it” at least to some degree?

    Brad

  361. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, there really is no given probability for obedience. We know that believers have the capability to obey but also the capability to be disobedient.

  362. Brad says:

    Then, what is Jesus saying here? He was speaking of his family who obviously hadn’t believed yet. They were not yet saved, and they were telling people he was crazy. We are children of God, but it sounds like Jesus is saying here that people in God’s family will “do” what his word says. I know not perfectly but at least to some degree? But then again, non believers obey God’s word without even knowing it. Maybe he is just talking about salvation/believing here since he is referring to the believers around him. They weren’t actively doing “work” they were just listening to him. John 6:29 “The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.”

    Brad.

  363. Lisa Preuett says:

    I am saddened by all the debating and arguing among Christians on this blog. We are called to love God and love others. This is the thing that defines us as Christians….,LOVE. Instead of spending so much time and effort in debating and speaking negatively of others, how about we use that same effort and time to do what we were created to do…..love God and love others. I know Kyle Idleman personally. He lives for Jesus. He loves people. He is the real deal.

  364. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Lisa, I am glad you stopped by. Please understand that it is a good thing to discuss the truth of God’s Word even when Christians disagree. Even people like Paul disagreed with people like Peter and rebuked him for it. Now I am not Paul but I am a believer. I even admit that Kyle Idleman could be the “real deal” but even “real deals” write books that proclaim error mixed in with some truths. My blog exists simply to stand for and defend the faith. Unfortunately to do so you at times have to deal with the fact that other preachers and teachers will says thing that do not line up with how I see God’s Word. If you have read both parts of my review then you have seen where I feel Kyle has some work to do to get his message to more align with the Biblical gospel message and grace itself. Sometimes the best way to love someone is to tell them the truth even if they may not agree or want to hear it.

    Jim F

  365. Brad says:

    Yes Jim, I agree. Lisa, Jim has been a tremendous help in giving me insight to scripture. I didn’t even realize I was listening to L/S heresy until I found this series of blogs (Holly’s, Jim’s, and Ex Preacher man). I was saved by the true gospel, but junk had come into my thinking without realizing it. I don’t agree with everything on these blogs, but I have learned a lot. We all have differences of opinion on things, and nobody has it all figured out, but the truth needs to be told even if it stings a bit.

    Jim, still wondering if you have a good response for my last comment. I think the reason James may have written James chapter two is because of his conviction of what Jesus said about his family on that day. That’s just speculation, but it was written about his family, so he obviously read it over and over. I’m sure he felt he needed to respond since he became a believer later. Will Christians do? As long as they are living by the spirit they will. I think that is what Jesus was trying to say.

    Anytime a Christian does something good, then that good work is credited now to the new creation. So in that sense a Christian “will” do good works after they are saved, but never enough to prove they are saved. It is inevitable though. I don’t know any Christian who hasn’t at least waved to somebody on the street after they are saved. However, when L/S people say a Christian “will” do good works after they are saved, they are saying they will do them in an abundance enough to somehow say the amount will be proof. That’s impossible. Again, I think Jesus was talking about people who are living by the spirit. Good works are our identity in Christ, and that is who we are. Bad works are the old man. We should always strive to live by the spirit.

    Brad

  366. Lisa Preuett says:

    This is my last comment on here because I don’t want to get pulled into this endless debate. I have more productive things to do with my time.

    “Unfortunately to do so you at times have to deal with the fact that other preachers and teachers will says thing that do not line up with how I see God’s Word” (This was your comment in response to my comment.)

    The problem I see with your statement is where you say “how I SEE God’s word” The way YOU see it and claim it and debate it doesn’t make it correct. Kyle Idleman doesn’t have any errors in his Biblical teachings. In fact, more preachers and teachers of God’s word need to step up and challenge Christians to be genuine followers of Christ instead of water-downed lukewarm people whose lives don’t reflect God at all. God bless you and may we all live in such a way that we point others to God and not away from him.

  367. jimfloyd12 says:

    Lisa, you are arguing the same thing against me that you are using yourself because in YOUR opinion, you believe Kyle to be correct. The problem goes back to proving it from God’s Word. In one way it actually is not an endless debate because God’s Word is clear and the Holy Spirit shows us. To say it is endless implies that no one will ever decide then based on scripture and the Holy Spirit’s leading which is correct. As you can see by Brad’s example is that there is a benefit of being made aware of extremes, trends, and errors around us. I see that you want to pass judgement but don’t care enough about us to try to teach us what our supposed errors are. Are we beneath you or your time? Is that your idea of love? Just asking…

    Anyway, if all Kyle was doing was encouraging believers to live like they ought then I would see the book in a different light but that is not the case. Part of pointing others to Him is by having the right gospel message.

    Jim F

  368. Curtis M says:

    By what Standard ?
    “to be genuine followers of Christ”

    Judas was a follower ?
    many followed Jesus for bread ?

    because you ate of the loaves and were filled
    Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

    believe in Him
    This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.
    Joh 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
    Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    His disciples His disciples His disciples
    disciples = Followers , Learner
    Joh 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

    let God be true, but every man a liar
    Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
    Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
    Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
    Act 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

    1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

  369. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Curtis,

    Yes Judas was a follower but not a believer.

  370. jimfloyd12 says:

    Lisa, let’s not forget the crux of the issue for Idleman and other like him:

    “They ordered a gospel that cost them nothing and offered them everything. So in case someone left it out or forgot to mention it when they explained what it meant to be a Christian, let me be clear: There is no forgiveness without repentance. There is no salvation without surrender. There is no life without death. There is no believing without committing.”(p. 35)

    (This in a nutshell is the crux of the whole issue. Contributing anything to your salvation i.e. surrender, turning from sins, dying to self, making commitments, counting the cost of discipleship, etc. is to add to the condition of receiving salvation by grace through faith. Eternal salvation is only granted to those who believe with simple child like faith in Christ based on the gospel. (John 3:16) To misunderstand that the Gospel cost Christ dearly but us nothing is to totally misunderstand it altogether. That is exactly why the “lordship” gospel is so dangerous.)

  371. jimfloyd12 says:

    Let’s remember that the gospel is a message of grace in that salvation is free to is because it has been purchased by Christ and there is no obligation or cost in order to receive it…. But Kyle Idleman contrary to scripture has said “clearly” otherwise.

  372. Brad says:

    Lisa, all Jim is trying to do is point out the errors of the book. Please pray about it before jumping to conclusions about his motives. Idleman could be saved, but falling into the same heresy that is deceiving a lot of churches. People Must be aware of this. I think my own pastor is falling for it as well, and I now believe L/S could be the great apostasy.

    It’s entirely ironic how they use Matt 7:21-23 to defend their position, but none of these people Jesus talks about ever mentions belief only their works: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” The “doeth” Jesus is talking about here is belief. It’s obviously Not their “works.”

    Idleman says “there was never a commitment to follow. Jesus never offered such an option.” So, how “committed” does one have to be in order to be saved? Nobody could ever know if that is the case, but 1 John 5:13 says we can “know” by the fact that we believed. Telling people false doctrine like this could keep a person unsaved for ever and keep a believer lost in the very lukewarmness that you speak about. Believe me, understanding what I was being deceived by has put a fire under me to tell people the truth about this deception, and people are listening.

    Brad

  373. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Brad and I agree. People indeed are listening and many are getting out of churches and ministries that are compromised but false gospels and false theology. It is often quite sad because even in many places in America people are finding it hard to find a good church to attend that does not either have a Catholic, Calvinistic, or Arminian (salvation can be lost) gospel.

    I’ll try to get to your other question tomorrow.

    Jim F

  374. Brad says:

    Hi Jim, was hoping you would get back on that question. As far as the video I sent, I hope It wasn’t offensive to you. I take it with a grain of salt. You may have thought it was the cross less gospel, but in the actual video he points up to a cross in the sky during the bridge. So, I can’t judge him, and it appears to me he believes what is needed for salvation. John 3:16 and the cross. The overall song to me paints a picture of grace and that we in America are all sinners and there’s “Only one way home.” Jesus.

    It was the last straw for me and my church today. My pastor was preaching on James Ch 2, but I just listened online. He actually said verbatim “We are saved by faith and works.” Please pray God leads me to a good church quickly. I don’t like forsaking the gathering.

    Brad

  375. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, I am still meaning to get to it. Had to work overtime all weekend. I understand about the church thing and pray you find a suitable one. I’ve found one myself but it took two plus years. Thankfully it was all God’s doing and has worked out well. We are looking forward to having Dennis Rokser in this weekend for a conference on eternal security.

    Jim F

  376. Brad says:

    No rush Jim thanks, yea I’ve seen Dennis Rokser’s videos. He’s good with a good sense of humor as well. I like his views on the Judgment Seat of Christ. I honestly don’t like how people call it the bema. To me it’s like taking Christ out of Christmas and saying xmas. I think some hyper grace preachers put far too much weight on the subject and have given it that shortened trendy name. There are some really strange views on it as well. I don’t think it’s anything we need to fear, and Dennis explains that well.

  377. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, as for James 2 I think James is referring to current conduct in the church such as looking down on and judging others and not providing for people like they ought thereby many of them had a poor testimony.

    In churches they tend to shorten the term to bema or the bema seat if most people already know what that is. I am not sure that hypers even understand the bema. They can be an off the wall bunch.

    Jim F

  378. Brad says:

    Hi Jim, I noticed in earlier responses here that you stated that you felt Romans 10:9 wasn’t referring to salvation. I’ve seen different opinions from a grace perspective, but I do think it’s a salvation statement. It’s always been one of my favorite passages for salvation. I don’t think a verbal confession is a must for salvation, but I think this means somebody is a general confessor of Christ or somebody who is known to confess Christ not a literal confession in and of itself. I don’t see how believing in your heart that Christ was raised from the dead can be anything but a reference for salvation. The whole chapter of Romans 10 is dealing with salvation. Just trying to understand where you are coming from?

    Brad

  379. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, there is a difference between physical deliverance (salvation) and eternal deliverance (salvation). The way I see it is that the nation of Israel which this is primarily directly in reference to was desiring deliverance and help in regards to their Roman oppression and beyond that they also had more important spiritual need. Paul says how can they call upon someone for deliverance (I assume from their current situation on earth) if they have not yet believed.

  380. jimfloyd12 says:

    I believe the verse 10:9 is likely talking about both types of salvation. The thing to remember is that eternal life is received though faith because it is by grace. No confessions or prayers are needed in addition. But if you want deliverance and help in what you face in this life the call out to the person in whom you trust.

  381. jimfloyd12 says:

    It also helps to read rom 9-11 as one section keeping the context of Israel in mind and how the Gentiles now fit in.

  382. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim I agree, It could be talking about both types of salvation. Now that you suggested I read 9-11, I came across another stumper… Romans 11:19 -21.. 19 “Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” If we “stand by faith,” why should we “fear” that we could possibly not be spared? L/S could easily argue this for loss of salvation.

    Brad

  383. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, some say it is likely talking there of Gentiles corporately so it is not in reference specifically about only believers. All believers will be spared from eternal damnation though are not always necessarily spared from earthly consequences for our actions. Remember that scripture does not contradict itself. The election in Rom 9 of Israel as a nation is also seen through Jacob. This passage of Romans 9-11 is trickier due to both corporate and individual things being mentioned and both physical and eternal salvation being mentioned. It can be hard from many to keep it all straight.

    Jim F

  384. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim, Pastor C gave me a good answer that goes along with what you are saying:

    ​​”Brad,

    Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    Remember the context: It is speaking of the Jewish people in general and also the Gentiles in general in God’s overall plan for the ages. The same thing that happened to Israel as a people can and will happen to the Gentiles as a people.

    Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    This is IN THE CONTEXT referring to God’s dealing with the Jews and Gentiles as groups of people in His plan for the ages. This has nothing to do with losing salvation.”

    Brad

  385. Brad says:

    Hi Jim, I had a friend of mine say he just can’t feel forgiven unless he confesses his sin. It kind of got me thinking. Is confession of sin required for salvation? Is that a work? 1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” What if we don’t confess our sins to God? If we don’t, according to this passage, how can He forgive us?

    Brad

  386. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad,

    A believer may not “feel” forgiven if there is unconfessed sin in their life. Remember that confession of sin is not required in order to receive eternal life. It must be received by faith. I John is written to believers and John desired that these believers walk in close fellowship with their Savior. Any believer pretending that they never sin any longer is lying.

    Jim F

  387. Brad says:

    Ok thanks.. I think 1 John is one of the hardest books to understand. It “Seemingly” contradicts itself all over the place.. But, we know there are no contradictions in the Bible. I just don’t understand the need to confess when we know it was all taken care of on the cross. I confess all the time, and I don’t mind doing it, but I don’t know if it’s absolutely necessary? I guess not.. I guess it just helps. I personally believe that the sanctification part of The Judgment Seat of Christ is on Earth. Before we die, I believe we will have already given account for every “Idol” word through sanctification, then the rewards are after we die. Maybe this is why we confess? Again, just my opinion.

    Brad

  388. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, the judgement seat is just an award type ceremony and is not an actual part of practical sanctification. Though closer fellowship with the Lord can only help toward laying up treasures in heaven. Yes I agree that I John can be tricky. I am currently reading a book by Dennis Rokser on interpreting I John.

    Jim F

  389. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim, when I am in step with the Lord, I’m not tempted to doubt my salvation. When I sin, satan gets a foot hold and tempts me to doubt. Sin doesn’t make a Christian lose salvation, but it can make a Christian feel like they have..

    Brad

  390. jimfloyd12 says:

    Yes, I agree. That is why I John 1:9 is so important. The quicker you deal with things and get right with God in the matter the less likely you are to give the devil a bigger handle with which toile you ineffective and frustrated.

  391. Brad says:

    Hi Jim,

    I use to bag on Max Lucado, because he sells a lot of books. I then went to his church website and looked at his salvation statement. Sounds like he’s on the right track? He does say “repent of sins” but it comes after salvation and that it “should” take place. Just a thought on Max. Don’t know much about him. This is his church salvation statement: “Salvation is a free gift of God. The death of Christ on the cross is the only sufficient payment for our sins. All have sinned, but all can be saved. This salvation is available for any who put their trust in Christ as Savior (Romans 3:23, 6:23; John 3:16). Those trusting Christ should repent of sin, confess their faith, and be baptized (Romans 10:9; Acts 2:38).” If this is what he sticks to, it’s pretty sound. However, Pastors sway from this in their next breath. lol But at least this probably reflects his heart.

    Brad

  392. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, from other things I have read I would have to conclude Max Lucado is at least some form of Lordship. That and he has other weird things to say at times.

    Jim F

  393. Brad says:

    Yea I think you’re right.. the repent of sins seems to be a package deal along with trusting Christ in that statement. He was a guest speaker at my church today. I just listened to him online, and I didn’t hear any LS junk today at least. What do you think about Rev 2:21 “I gave her time to repent, but she refused to repent of her immorality.” God didn’t want Jezebel to just change her mind here. He wanted her to quit sinning. So, wouldn’t repent imply quit sinning here? I know it can’t mean it in salvation but what about in this passage? Is there a different Greek word here?

    Brad

  394. jimfloyd12 says:

    It is not another greek word but in context is not talking about turning from sins for eternal life. The consequence was stated as tribulation and physical death.

    Jim F

  395. Brad says:

    Jim, you are saying it means turn from sins here though but not for eternal life? Sometimes I see repent as an acknowledgement of your sins. She refused to acknowledge her sins? When somebody acknowledges their sin they know something needs to be done about them. Just a change of mind doesn’t seem to fit here. What if she said “Yea I change my mind.. my sin is bad” and then keeps on sinning. That doesn’t seem to fit here. Thanks Curtis, I will check those out.

    Brad

  396. jimfloyd12 says:

    Basically yes, that is what I am saying based on the context. Please consider this excerpt from Ryrie posted by Califgracer (Bruce) on a past post on Expreacherman:

    “Here are a few more thoughts on repentance gleaned from the book “So Great Salvation,” by Charles Ryrie, Chicago: Moody, 1989, 1997, pp. 83-90:

    Three types of repentance:

    1. Nonsaving repentance: this involves a change of mind but it has nothing to do with salvation. It can involve resolutions to avoid wrongful or sinful practices. It may or may not result in positive changes in one’s life, yet it has nothing to do with salvation. It can involve remorse as in the case of Judas’
    returning the thirty pieces of silver, yet this action did not save Judas.
    2. Saving repentance (quoting Ryrie, p. 85): “there is a repentance that is unto eternal salvation. What kind of repentance saves? Not a sorrow for sins or even a sorrow that results in a cleaning up of one’s life. People who reform have repented; that is, they have changed their minds about their past lives, but that kind of repentance, albeit genuine, does not of itself save them. The only kind of repentance that saves is a change of mind about Jesus Christ. . . . The sense of sin and sorrow because of sin may stir up a person’s mind or conscience so that he or she realizes the need for a Savior, but if there is no change of mind about Jesus Christ there will be no salvation.” Ryrie also observes (p. 88) that the gospel of John does not even once use the word repent but instead uses the words “believe” or “faith” climaxing in John 20:31, “But these [things] are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
    3. A third type of repentance involves a change of mind within the experience of Christian living. This is not a call to salvation. Paul’s admonitions to those he calls his brothers, the Corinthian church (1 and 2 Corinthians) apply here. The calls to the seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3 fit into this category. Jesus’ gracious call to them was not for salvation; rather it was a call to repent in the sense of forsaking unrighteous living, sinful lifestyles, lukewarmness of spirit, and returning to a Christian lifestyle befitting their spritual heritage in Christ.
    Ryrie’s concluding “main point” (pp. 89-90): “Is repentance a condition for receiving eternal life? Yes, if it is a repentance or changing one’s mind about Jesus Christ. No, if it means to be sorry for sin or even to resolve to turn from sin, for these things WILL NOT SAVE. Is repentance of sin a precondition to faith? No, though a sense of sin and the desire to turn from it may be used by the Spirit to direct someone to the Savior and His salvation. Repentance may prepare the way for faith, but it is faith that saves, not repentance (unless repentance is understood as a synonymn for faith or changing one’s mind about Christ).”

    Jim F

  397. maximus929 says:

    Could someone give me a link to a good teaching on Matthew 25:31-46, and not a Lordship Salvation teacher, nor Bob Wilkin or the GES false teachers. If you know of a teaching by Yankee Arnold on this, it’d be much appreciated.

  398. jimfloyd12 says:

    Welcome maximus929, I believe the sheep and goats judgement takes place between the end of the tribulation and beginning of the millennial kingdom. Basically the physical survivors of the tribulation period are divided into two groups. Sheep representing believers and goats unbelievers. Now I am not sure about which sermon Yankee Arnold mentions this passage but here is a good explanation of it on Bibleline.

    http://www.biblelineministries.org/articles/basearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=JUDGEMENT+OF+THE+NATIONS

  399. Brad says:

    Hi Jim,

    I’ve been listening to the audio on repent that Curtis sent over, and they have been helpful. I believe repent means change of mind. However “Repent of sins” can be applied in salvation as a change of mind. When I believed as a kid, I had to “Change my mind” about the seriousness of sin and that it separated me from God. Sin to me wasn’t something I just shouldn’t do anymore but something that had eternal ramifications. So, I repented of my sins (changed my mind about the seriousness of them) and placed my faith in Christ. In that sense, “Repenting of sin” is true. It’s never a reformation or promise of reformation just a change of mind. So, wouldn’t repenting of sins be part of believing? You can also be repenting of the sin of unbelief. Changing your mind from unbelief to belief. A person can be repenting (changing their mind) about all kinds of things that are keeping them from coming to Christ. You have to admit the word repent can get very confusing. I bet that’s why John didn’t use the word repent at all in his gospel but used the word believe 98 times.

    Brad

  400. Curtis M says:

    Hi maximus929
    below is a 4 part series from Duluth Bible Church

    Should Christians Fear Being Cast Into Outer Darkness? Pt. 1-4

    ttp://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceonly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=duluthbible&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=Should+You+Fear+Outer+Darkness

  401. Curtis M says:

    Though the word repent is not in Gospel of John .
    The principal is there . a soul goes from unbelieving to believeing
    From unbelief to belief

  402. Brad says:

    Hi Curtis yes and unbelief is a sin right? So doesn’t a person repent (change their mind) about that sin? Also, when one understands the death, burial and Resurrection, then they must change their mind (repent) of their sins, because they must acknowledge that their sin separates them from God and that He paid for them. They must change their mind about their sin. “Repent of sin.” That might not be the best way to put it, but that is what a new believer does. They “Repent of their sins.” They have a new mind about sin and that they need a savior to save them from their sins. They also repent about who Christ is, to there is all kinds of repenting going on when a person is saved, but it’s never a work or promise of a work. It’s an new acknowledgment not a change of behavior..

  403. Curtis M says:

    If I may I would like to answer with a sermon
    Preached 1977 ish . to me one of the clearest in biblical context presentation of the Gospel using the word repent

    http://www.gracebiblestudies.org/Message.aspx?MessageID=38

  404. Brad says:

    Thanks Curtis… a lot of free gracers become dogmatic about “turn from sin” to be saved, but it depends on what is meant by “turn from sin.” if it simply means to change your mind about sin and realize that it has separated you from God, then I don’t see a problem with “turn from sin” or “repent of sin” to be saved. But, that’s not what preachers typically mean. But, some do.

  405. jimfloyd12 says:

    Right Brad, most do see it that way that is why we have to be very careful with how we say things. I’ll comment more later

  406. Brad says:

    My tract message! ( :

    Will you go to Heaven when you die? Salvation is simple! It is a free gift from God. The Bible says that all people have sinned and are destined to a lake of fire for eternity. Nobody is perfect, but God gives us a choice.

    God sent his only son Jesus to pay the penalty for our sin. He was perfect and never sinned. All we have to do is believe that Jesus died on a cross for our sin, was buried, rose again, and appeared to His disciples so we can know how to go to be with Him in paradise forever. That’s it! God is all loving and has made it as simple as possible. 1 Cor 15:1-5

    Jesus was God in the flesh, and He is the only way to Heaven. He is the only true God, but sadly some people just can’t accept this simple truth and trust in Him for their eternal future. The moment a person believes this, they have eternal life, and It can never be lost or taken away. Eternal means eternal.

    Do you believe this simple truth? Then, see you in paradise!
    God Bless.

  407. jimfloyd12 says:

    Very good Brad. You could also include a few other scripture references for further study. Like one for the free gift idea or our lost condition.

  408. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim,

    I’m trying to get this on a 2 inch by 4 inch card. I’ve already pushed it, and I could tweak it forever.

    Brad

  409. jimfloyd12 says:

    I figured you had a small amount of space.

  410. Brad says:

    ( :

    Will you go to Heaven when you die? Salvation is simple! It is a free gift from God. The Bible says that all people have sinned and are destined to a lake of fire for eternity. Rev 20:14 Nobody is perfect, but God gives us a choice.

    God sent his only son Jesus to pay the penalty for our sin. He was perfect and never sinned. All we have to do is believe that Jesus died on a cross for our sin, was buried, rose again, and appeared to His disciples so we can know how to go to be with Him in paradise forever. That’s it! God is all loving and has made it as simple as possible. 1 Cor 15:1-5

    Jesus was God in the flesh, and He is the only way to Heaven. He is the only true God, but sadly some people just can’t accept this simple truth and trust in Him for their eternal future. The moment a person believes this, they have eternal life, and it can never be lost or taken away. Eternal means eternal. John 3:16

    Do you believe this simple truth? Then, see you in paradise!
    God Bless.

  411. Brad says:

    Final Answer! lol I guess I shouldn’t just assume everybody will believe there at the end.

    Will you go to Heaven when you die? Salvation is simple! It is a free gift from God. Eph 2:8 The Bible says that all people have sinned and are destined to a lake of fire for eternity. Rev 20:14 Nobody is perfect, but God gives us a choice.

    God sent his only son Jesus to pay the penalty for our sin. He was perfect and never sinned. All we have to do is believe that Jesus died on a cross for our sin, was buried, rose again, and appeared to His disciples so they could spread the good news. That’s it! God is all loving and has made it as simple as possible. 1 Cor 15:1-5

    Jesus was God in the flesh, and He is the only way to Heaven. Sadly, some people just can’t accept this simple truth and trust in Him for their eternal future. The moment a person believes this message, they have eternal life, and it can never be lost or taken away. Eternal means eternal. John 3:16

    If you believe this simple truth, then see you in paradise!
    God Bless.

  412. Brad says:

    Ok here is a hypothetical… A guy gets in a sticky situation wrecks his car on the side of an abandoned mountain area road. He can’t move or get help. He’s never been to church or read the Bible, and all he’s ever heard about Jesus is that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. He’s in a lot of pain and is dying and cries out “Jesus save me I don’t want to go to Hell,” then he dies. Does he go to Heaven? Or, does Jesus say… well, you didn’t understand the cross, the death, burial and resurrection, the trinity, the virgin birth, the fact that I’m the only way, the fact that I’m the only God etc.. So, sorry you go to hell… Or, does Jesus in His loving mercy and Grace welcome this new believer home? I opt for the latter… I don’t think Jesus would be legalistic in this matter. And, if this is all it takes in this situation, they why would it be different in any other situation?

  413. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, you wouldn’t want to base theology off of hypotheticals. That is a good way to end up with a false gospel such as the crossless. Which by the way is pretty similar to what you describe. I can say more about this later and I am getting a post ready on the crossless gospel. It may help some.

  414. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim, but this is a very likely hypothetical. I’m sure it has happened before. And, in the end times when rocks are falling on people and stars are falling from the sky I don’t think these people remaining on the earth who are non Christians are going to have time to organize a Bible study. So in this very likely situation, does he go to heaven? Just your opinion…

  415. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, I don’t believe so based the Biblical clarity that salvation is received through faith. Someone asking a “Jesus” they really know nothing about including His atonement to save them from Hell is not the way to receive eternal life through faith. As for the tribulation times, not many will be saved especially not Gentiles. There is a multitude saved durning that time that the Bible speaks of but I believe it is result of the direct witness of the 144000. They will certainly be sharing what one would need to know. Plus we have to remember that the Holy Spirit will not be performing His current ministry as He is now.

  416. Brad says:

    Hi Jim, what I’m saying is based on that scripture which is the word of God. He calls out to the Jesus of the Bible not Jezus at the taco shop…

  417. Curtis M says:

    there are problems that can arise from improper definition of the word Repent .
    the phrase “repent of sin” is not in the bible
    if repent = turn from sin , that makes God a sinner
    repent of sin = keep the law
    Jesus paid humanities sin debt , past , present and future , that payment needs to be accepted by the believer soul that it is complete , by Grace through faith. by Jesus death on the cross for our sins on the cross burial for 3 days and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures
    faith = Trust Rely Depend.

    the believer’s soul is under a higher law “the law of the Spirit” fulfilled by The Spirit

    Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
    Rom_8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    we become spiritual in our thinking not by what we our doing . hence God desires to change our minds “what we thinky ” about Jesus .

    the natural man rebels against Grace ,and says there’s gotta be something I can Do to help God live the Christian life.
    Yield to the Spirit . The only biblical response to Grace is Faith

    I have repented several times in typing this post . I have and continue to repent what God’s word says about me in presenting myself to God romans 12:1-2

    be transformed by the renewing of your mind
    Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

    absolutely incredibly beautiful how God works us out of salvation of our own efforts and is a Free Gift paid for by another and is God’s desire that all be saved but sadly not all will to be saved .

    also for the record there is only one thing to do with sin that is to confess 1 John 1:9 =
    “agree with God” against myself/ourselves that it is sin to be condemned to hell . ain’t no turning about it for the church age believer soul

    repent left undefined is like trying to get clean with soap wrapped in duct tape because you fear the soap .

    a fundamental bible believer but not a fundamentalist

    Curtis

  418. Brad says:

    Thanks for that Curtis that helps, Jim.. the point I was trying to make is that Jesus of the Bible “Is” the Resurrection. He “Is” in fact the death, burial and Resurrection. He is all of that. He is the great “I Am.” So, if somebody believes in Jesus of the Bible for salvation not just “a” Jesus, then isn’t that person believing in all of who He is? There are a lot of things I don’t know or understand about Jesus now, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in all of who He is.

    The death, burial and Resurrection isn’t in this passage, but it’s “In” this passage…

    John 1:12

    “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

    “Even” sounds like the basic criteria… but, it doesn’t say “even” believe the death burial and Resurrection. It says “even” believe on His name.

    Just believe on His name why? because, His name is the encompassment of everything He is. He IS the death, burial, and resurrection even if somebody doesn’t understand that or even know about that yet. Again, there are a lot of things I don’t know or understand about Jesus yet, but that doesn’t mean I’m not saved. How is this the cross less gospel? He IS the cross…

  419. jimfloyd12 says:

    It is still a promise only or crossless gospel. There is a book by JB Hixson titled getting the gospel wrong. Chapter 10 I believe is his chapter on the promise only gospel. He covers very well Bibically the case against it. So does Tom Stegall’s The Gospel of the Christ. Which by the way can be found online. There is a lot more to be said in response to your comment but I will try to cover some of it in my next post.

  420. jimfloyd12 says:

    But if he doesn’t know the difference is my point. Someone that has never read the Bible ms only heard the name Jesus thrown around in connection with eternal life does not necessarily even realize we are not talking about a person but the very Son of God incarnate.

  421. Brad says:

    Hi Jim, I’m not sure I understood your last post. 1 Cor 15:1-5 doesn’t mention the “Son” of God either just Christ. The problem can be what satisfies one Christian as to what must be believed doesn’t satisfy the next. Now, since 1 Cor 15:1-5 doesn’t speak of Jesus as the son of God, then that has to be thrown out the window for a salvation passage? Surly you can see how this can get all over the place unless we know exactly and precisely what must be believed. I believe God is a God of simplicity when it comes to salvation. I believe His Grace abounds to a mustard seed needed. 2 Cor 11:3 It has to be to just believe in the Jesus of the bible for salvation, and He will reveal everything else in time. I mean there has to be a definite. It just can’t be vague and a case by case basis on what to believe. What is absolutely needed? What exactly must be believed? Because, again it changes every time you ask the next Christian… I just don’t see how a person crying out to Jesus of the bible (thief on cross) in a dire situation doesn’t get the free gift. Did the thief understand that Jesus was dying for his sin? I just don’t see how Jesus would reject somebody calling out to Him personally even though they don’t understand it all like the death burial and Resurrection. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just can’t see that.

  422. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, let’s not forget that I Corinthians 15-1-4 is not given to us in isolation. What does 1 Corinthians 1 confirm about God?

    1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

    What about the importance of the preaching of the cross?

    1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
    1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    You see here that the cross was tied in with the gospel he preached.

    How is a person saved?

    1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    Believe what? The preached gospel including the cross. Why? Because this was believing in Christ for salvation.

    1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    Paul thought it important to preached Christ crucified.This is because the atonement is important.

    It tells a person what the Son of God did about their hopeless in problem. Our response then is to either trust Him alone for it based on the revelation of the gospel (what He has done for us) or to reject.

    1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    Here again we see the importance placed on the cross.

    So when we read chapter 15 we know that they would have already known who Christ was. That truth was also part of what Paul and others were teaching.

    1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
    1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
    1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
    1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
    1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    It was important for Paul to tell them that the Son of God Jesus Christ had once and for all paid the penalty for their sin. He was even a witness to the resurrected Jesus. The resurrection of course proved that His atonement was accepted as a done deal. The payment had been accepted by God the Father.

    So the question is not what minimalistically must be believed to be saved. The better question is what belief or beliefs are keeping a person from believing the gospel? Do they know there is a God? Do they know they are a hopelessly guilty lost sinner in God’s sight? Do they know there is a penalty for that sin? Do they know the Son of God died on the cross and rose again so that they might be saved from this penalty? Do they know they cannot add any merit of their own? Will they trust Christ alonefor their personal salvation based on who He is and what he has done?

  423. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad,

    You said, ” Did the thief understand that Jesus was dying for his sin? I just don’t see how Jesus would reject somebody calling out to Him personally even though they don’t understand it all like the death burial and Resurrection.”

    We have to remember that the content that Paul had in his gospel was after the events of the thief on the cross. Whatever he knew it was enough. I believe that he knew Christ was who he had faith in Him. Now that we have the events of the cross and resurrection in the past we have the good news that this have been accomplished. Christ is in Heaven the rise victorious Lord ready to save all who decided to turst Him for salvation based on the gospel truth.

  424. jimfloyd12 says:

    Please also see how John over at ExP recently described the gospel:

    http://expreacherman.com/2015/11/22/good-news-for-thanksgiving-2015/

  425. Brad says:

    Jim, yes I do believe the cross needs to be told to people when sharing the gospel. I absolutely do. It helps them understand how they were saved. That’s why I put that message on my tracts. But, I don’t see somebody calling out to Jesus personally to save them from Hell when they are dying and Him saying sorry you didn’t get the full message about me. Again, He is the cross message. If somebody is praying John 3:16 with somebody at a hospital before they die and they smile and say “I believe” right before they pass and God says that’s great but that person didn’t tell you about the cross before you passed. They just told you that if you believed in me you wouldn’t perish. “But I was reeling in pain and they said if I believed in you I would go to Heaven” and He says sorry they should have told you about the cross. I just don’t see Jesus being that cold at that moment. That’s not the God I know…

  426. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, so if I am understanding you correctly you are saying that you believe in the promise only gospel as the one that God honors and that the cross is just a helpful addition but not necessary. To me that in essence was Hodges and is Wilkins position. Problem is though that it is not the gospel. I am going to have to let that be my final word to you on this until my new post is ready. Meanwhile, please continue to study Gods word to see what He says about it. Please also read the books I suggested earlier.

  427. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad, I received your latest comment but I will save it for the next post. Those questions will flow with the thought better there.

  428. Brad says:

    Ok Thanks Jim.. there has to be exceptions; I just don’t know where God would draw the line?

    Brad

  429. jimfloyd12 says:

    It is a fine question to ask and I’ll try to answer it later.

  430. Brad says:

    Jim I wanted to elaborate on the “Promise Gospel” No I don’t believe in the promise Gospel. I believe in the Jesus Gospel. Jesus saves. “Come to me all” Jesus. Jesus’ call to come to Him was for everybody after the cross as well. Do you not believe that? That’s not the promise; that’s Jesus himself. If somebody believes in Jesus (of the Bible) they will believe the cross eventually. Just like sanctification though… it might not happen right away. I think this is where the Lord is leading me. I would never say the cross doesn’t need to be taught.

    Brad

  431. jimfloyd12 says:

    Brad,I am sure that there are people that think Christ is God yet don’t think his atonement on the cross is enough. Take Lordshippers for example. The one belief does not mean the other is inevitable.

  432. Brad says:

    Jim sorry for so many posts.. I was just making those tracts and a lot of questions came flooding through my mind. Again look forward to your post will wait to comment then. Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

    Brad

  433. jimfloyd12 says:

    For more on general revelation and the need for special revelation plus see the references to it in the book Freely By His Grace or Ryrie’s discussion of it in his book Basic Theology.

    Jim F

  434. kimilie diane allen says:

    your views of Kyle Idleman’s book is completely off point. you could not be more wrong about Kyle he is simply saying that you will know if someone has accepted Christ into their heart by the fruit that they bear that is what he is talking about when he is saying a fan it’s very easy to walk down the aisle of a church and say a prayer but to live your life as a Christian to be christ-like or to strive to be Christ like to bear the fruit of a Christian so that others might see Christ in you and might want to turn to Christ as an alternative to the world in which we live is a whole different story that is simply what he is trying to say I think you are misunderstanding him you are completely wrong I say this with the upmost respect sir but you could not be more wrong about this man he has a wonderful heart and is in love with Christ our Lord

  435. D. Meyer says:

    Man, ya’ll sure waste a lot of time criticizing those who are bringing people to God in a different manner than yourself. Some are brought to God via Joel Osteen while others are brought through the teachings of Charles Spurgeon. Doesn’t matter, they still are now seeking God. The seed is planted and the rest is up to God. Let us unite in Christ, not divide.

  436. jimfloyd12 says:

    D. Meyer,

    Thanks for stopping by but let me ask you, did Paul contend for the truth. Was he concerned about false gospels? How does a false gospel help bring anyone to Christ. What you are suggesting is that you are happy that they are brought with the vicinity of the ballpark and let God straighten out the error. The problem with that view is that we are to go into all the world with the right message. We have it clearly spelled out for us so there need not be this horseshoes and hand grenades mentality of kind of close is good enough. Especially not when the broad path leads to destruction.

    Jim F

  437. jimfloyd12 says:

    D. Meyer,

    Please also note that you will not find in scripture that a false gospel is a way to bring people to God.

    Nor is it ever of the Spirit.

    Jim F

  438. Curtis M says:

    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

  439. Adam Hampton says:

    This whole post is a good example of taking a really good an insightful book, and twisting it into something evil….Luke 9:60-62 is an example of a man who said (Lord, i will follow thee; but let me first go bid farewell, which are at home at my house. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.) the kingdom of God is with the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ. (James 2:19) You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder. (Are the Demons saved? of course not.) Having put your hand on the plough and looking back is the same thing as just believing and continuing to live the way you were and expecting salvation, No man like this is fit for the kingdom of God.(Matthew 7:22-27)“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’(How can Jesus know you, if you refuse to follow Him?) 24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.” (You CANT argue with Jesus Christ, those are his words, so tell him that your belief alone is sufficient while you continue to please your flesh and neglect the TRUE gift of salvation, while you deceive others by making them believe they just except Christ and go on there marry little way.) I see a lot of envy, and false accusations about people who VERY clearly are writing books inspired by the Holy Spirit. Satan has many names, but one in specific comes to mind right now, “The Accuser Of Brethren.”

  440. Brad says:

    Adam,

    You use the same Lordship Salvation arguments.

    You said: “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder. (Are the Demons saved? of course not.)”

    And why are demons not saved by believing? Because, they are not part of the unlimited atonement. Jesus didn’t die for demons, so they can believe all they want, but they will never be saved. They made their eternal choice in Heaven to rebel and brought eternal judgement on themselves that way. They were never given the choice to believe for salvation on earth. Of course they believe Jesus is God. They were with Him in Heaven. They can’t be saved by believing, because Jesus didn’t die for them. We; however, are saved by simply believing the gospel.

    You said: “You CANT argue with Jesus Christ, those are his words, so tell him that your belief alone is sufficient”

    If belief alone isn’t sufficient, then what is sufficient?

    Brad

  441. Curtis M says:

    Adam , Welcome and thank you for the comments

    In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

    none so blind as those who think they see

    Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

    “I see, “I see
    “I see a lot of envy, and false accusations about people who VERY clearly are writing books inspired by the Holy Spirit.”

    “inspired by the Holy Spirit ”
    really ? by what standard ?

    Lord Lord , They knew Jesus as Lord BUT not as Savior

  442. jimfloyd12 says:

    To commenter Adam Hampton,

    Thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment even though you disagree.

    You said, “This whole post is a good example of taking a really good an insightful book, and twisting it into something evil.”
    It already is something evil in the sense that it advocates a false gospel. It is not that the writer had evil intentions but the result of a false message. I don’t have to do anything to make it more false.

    Luke 9:60-62 is a discipleship passage. It does not speak about receiving eternal life. “Fit” for the kingdom means useful.
    James 2:19 again is part of a passage talking about Christian living and the example about demons is used to get the disobedient believers to realize that they lack a good testimony to the lost in not caring about the needs of others. It rebukes their “better than you” mindset. At least the demons trembled in response to God. These people could not even be bothered to help the poor and needy. It is not a passage about having or not having eternal life. Good works have to do with a good testimony before men.
    You then said this false statement, “Having put your hand on the plough and looking back is the same thing as just believing and continuing to live the way you were and expecting salvation.”
    The Bible over 150 times states that salvation is received through faith. The way you live does not effect eternal life and eternal life itself does not make you live right. It gives you the option to live right. We still have to decide to obey the Holy Spirit. It is not automatic.

    Were the Galatian believers saved? They were bewitched back into law keeping and had fallen from grace? The Corinthian believers were wallowing in various sins and strongly rebuked for it. Were they eternally secure? Yes. During that time did they have a good testimony? No.

    Next you offer yet another commonly used verse that many use as a proof text to try to prove “faith plus” salvation. But realize what they appeal to…their works! They though good things like casting out demons and prophesies bought them favor with God. They were sorely mistaken because in God’s sight they practiced lawlessness. They were still guilty before God. These were people that never believed. How did Abraham gets saved? The moment he believed. At that very moment his faith was counted as righteousness. No person that has Christ’s righteousness imputed is going to be labeled as one that practices lawlessness because it will all be under the blood. Now remember that, unlike the believers in James, Abraham had a good testimony before men in that he offered up his son Isaac.
    Jesus knows you the moment you are born again. He doesn’t have to wait for you to follow as a believer before He knows you.

    If you are going to build your house upon the rock of Jesus Christ then you must start by trusting Christ alone through faith to save you from your penalty for sin. Or, you can use the discipleship works oriented gospel to build on sand…
    You said, “(You CANT argue with Jesus Christ, those are his words, so tell him that your belief alone is sufficient while you continue to please your flesh and neglect the TRUE gift of salvation, while you deceive others by making them believe they just except Christ and go on there marry little way.)”
    I don’t argue with Christ at all. It is people that hold to a discipleship gospel that argue with God as seen in the following verses:

    John 3:16 – what is the condition? Whosoever believeth in him
    Act 16:31 – Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
    Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
    You said, “I see a lot of envy, and false accusations about people who VERY clearly are writing books inspired by the Holy Spirit. Satan has many names, but one in specific comes to mind right now, “The Accuser Of Brethren.”

    So a false gospel indicates that it comes from the Spirit. No. The Spirit guides us into all true. It is exactly by the Spirit through the Word of God that we know that these things such as a discipleship gospel are false teachings. People that have opposing views tend to think that envy is a motivator however that’s not even close. I am not envious of those that preach and teach falsehood but rather my heart goes out to them and those they affect. I sometimes write to articles to warn people of these errors. It is hard at times but the loving thing and responsible thing to do. It also means from time to time that I have to deal with angry naysayers who don’t like error to be exposed or who take it personally but nothing is meant personally. It is only meant to have people take a second look at the Word of God and what it says for itself. Remember what the devil does. He blinds the minds of those that don’t believe lest the glorious gospel of Christ should shine unto them. Unwittingly so many Pastors today like Idleman that write these books are really not helping to combat Satan’s blinding efforts.

  443. Brad says:

    Here is an article on salvation vs discipleship. Did I ever post this before? I thought it was pretty good. It’s not a perfect article, and it’s written by a Baptist Preacher, but he does a pretty good job of distinguishing between the two. There is a second page that you have to click on at the bottom.

    http://ministry127.com/outreach-discipleship/distinctions-between-salvation-and-discipleship

  444. steve paskeiwicz says:

    James said many of the same things as in “Not a Fan”

  445. jimfloyd12 says:

    Steve, James knew that he was saying those things to believers.

    Jim F

  446. jimfloyd12 says:

    Please listen to this sermon from my Pastor recently preached on James 2

    https://billingsbiblechurch.com/sermon-audio/

  447. Colton says:

    This is what I’m having a problem understanding. You guys are suggesting that these people are yet still believing inworks and are belieing in a false gospel, then 90% of church member who love and follow Jesus aren’t really saved but the sin loving people in America who say “O yeah I believe Jesus died for my sins and hes the only way to Heaven” if ever confronted about their beliefs are actually going to heaven? So ALL this time, most churches throughout time have spread false gospels and likely are going to hell while my neighbor who lives a sinful life, cares nothing about pleasing God, never attends church ever but then shares on Facebook “I believe Jesus I the only way to heaven” picture is going? So despite the fact America is turning into garbage, most Americans are indeed saved? So over all these years we’ve been deceived? Someone posted we didn’t have to repent??? It’s true it’s not by what we do, but I have to CHOOSE to believe. Is that not something I have to DO? I don’t have to repent? So since I was 7 when I believed (actually I cant remember not believing since I was raised in church, so I’m not sure when I became saved) this whole time I could be a sleeping around, lying, stealing, heck even murder someone instead of trying to live a godly life pleasing to Him and still go to heaven? Jesus died for those sins, so as long as I believe, I can continue sinning? Why on earth would I want to live a godly life then? So I can have a few more blessings here and rewards in heaven? How about I live Luke warm so I can have some blessings and still enjoy sin? I don’t want the Holy Spirit in my life guiding me, I don’t want Him to change my ways,but since I believe that he died for my sins, I’m all set for heaven? I SHOULD be making progress in my Christian life but I don’t really have to, right? That’s a gospel everyone wants. Who would turn that down? Why would anyone? Is every Christian Ive ever met likely unsaved? Should we wish that the books past John were never put into our modern Bible so that this false gospel yall speak of would not deceive 99% of people? Im not trying to be an idiot as Imsure mere text is making it sound that way. Im just curious as to how you seem to say a change SHOULD come but if you look exactly like you did before and like t he world, it doesnt matter you still get in. That’s how I’m understanding yall. My prayer should have been “Jesus, I know I’m a sinner and that it’s only thru you I can get to heaven and only by believing. But I’m glad I don’t HAVE to change my ways or anything, I can just believe on you and keep on sinning. You said if I love you I will keep your commandments. Well, I guess I don’t love you cuz I have no intention to keep them. All I have to do is believe in you and confess you as Lord… that’s the gospel after all. Thank you for not making me change but allowing me into your kingdom!” Again I’m NOT trying to sound like an idiot I would honestly feel this way if I read some of these commentsafter the first time I heard Jesus name mentioned.

  448. jimfloyd12 says:

    Colton,

    Thanks for taking time to write your thoughts and questions on this. Hopefully I can answer to help clarify things for you.

    I am not saying that people that follow Christ are saved or unsaved. The key is that if the have only ever believed a false works gospel then they have remained unsaved.

    Have many churches over the years taught false gospels? Sure. But just because there are many doesn’t mean that their traditions trump God’s Word and what it says on the matter.

    Loving or hating sin is not an issue in conversion but it is a matter of obedience in the Christian life.

    If you want to understand grace then it will help you to realize that it means salvation is offered through no merit of our own. That means no works or pledges to live right upfront and not works or continued commitments to good works after convention in order to keep our eternal standing. Remember that Christ already paid it all as far as our sin debt and is our risen Savior who willingly pardons any who will trust Him for it.

    So to your scenario, could a lost man live terribly, believe the gospel, die without doing good works, and go to heaven ? Yes, most certainly because 1) Christ had paid his son debt and 2) the man received forgiveness by grace through faith. Whereas a moral unbeliever by external standards could decide to start living a certain way in an attempt to follow Christ’s example but here is the thing, if he never trusts Christ alone as His Savior then he is just working for something.

    Repentance is required for salvation. But remember we have know what we are to repent (change our minds about). In order to believe the gospel one needs to change their minds from trusting anyone or anything other than the Savior. You must know that you are lost in sin in need of a Savior but turning from sins is not conversion. It is a step of obedience in the Christian life. And not a guaranteed step. Reality is that believers will find many time in their Christians lives where they will find themselves in need of getting right in their ongoing personal relationship with God 1John 1:9

    Is belief something we choose to do? Yes, that is the only non-meritorious thing you can do in order to accept God’s free gift of salvation.

  449. jimfloyd12 says:

    Colton, to continue my answer,

    A believer goes to heaven based on whether or not Christ’s righteousness is imputed to him or not. Once it is then all past, present, and future sins for that person are forever under the blood of Christ. That person has been forever judicially declared innocent. Period. You ask about motivation. Why be motivated to please someone who did that for you? Love. Thankfulness, etc. It is by resting in the glorious reality of our new position in Christ that we find the proper motivation to please him. The more you please the more you grow the more you continue in close fellowship and so on.

  450. Curtis M says:

    Colton said “instead of trying to live a godly life ”

    Welcome Colton and hello
    in your post this is what stands out to me “trying to live a godly life” and why i am responding when a soul gets to the point of “trying to live the christian life” if they even see it and are not blinded it is over concerning sanctification and are carnal (looking at yourself behavior patterns , lifestyle instead of Christ Jesus) until a soul recognizes they are in competition with God and collapse , file bankruptcy and fall into the finished work of Christ Jesus. It is by our failures and confessing that failure (sin) of getting in Gods way to live the christian life through us created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
    those works are not produced by us , they are a by product of the Holy Spirit by active dependence in our minds delighting ourselves in Gods Word in our position in Christ Jesus believing what Gods word says to be True and Taking God’s side against ourselves, Passive Production is a result

    Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    pertaining to flesh
    Carnal From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: – carnal, fleshly.

    What is the Christian life to be?

    The authentic Christian life is designed to be a daily vertical personal fellowship with God based on your identification with Jesus Christ, motivated primarily by His love and provided totally by His grace and power which is enjoyed by repeated responses of faith as one diligently seek the Lord resulting in spiritual growth in Christ likeness faithful obedience to God’s will fruitful service to others in love all to the glory of God

    Principle to remember
    The Christian life is a supernatural way of life not lived by self effort but by faith in Jesus Christ by the power through the Holy Spirit

    Legalism is the mental attitude which seeks to earn or merit the blessings of God by religious rituals or good works for either salvation or sanctification

  451. johninnc says:

    Colton, when one believes in Jesus as his Savior, he is saved. A person does not have to want the Holy Spirit to change his life in order to be saved.

    One’s good works, including good intentions, are never the issue in whether or not one has eternal life. If they were, what quantification standards would you use? How much sin must be repented of? For how long? How much must one want Jesus to change his life? To what extent? For how long? What if a person changes and then gets worse again?

    The person who has eternal life is the one who realizes that Jesus is not just necessary, but that He is enough.

  452. Leah says:

    Thank you. A group I am a part of has chosen ‘Not A Fan’ as our summer reading/group study and it has struck an uncomfortable cord with me, but I was struggling to put it to words. You have done that. Thank you for giving me the vocabulary to express my thoughts on this.

  453. jimfloyd12 says:

    Leah,

    Thanks for stopping by and hopefully your group has found a better book. Most often I find it is best to just study a portion of the Bible itself versus what someone else said about it.

    Jim F

  454. Rich says:

    Dear Jim,
    I have to disagree with your commentary on Kyle Idleman’s book, “Not a Fan.” First off, should our life radically change if Jesus is the Lord of our life? Should we be willing to let Jesus reign in our whole life? Should we obey and follow Jesus? I don’t think that is much to ask from Jesus since He died for you and me when we were still sinners. We must have faith what Jesus did on the cross for our sins, buried and arose from the grave three days later. People understood this on the day of Pentacost because Acts 2:37 tells us after Peter’s sermon they were cut to the heart. They knew response was needed. Obedience was needed. Peter tells them in verse 38 to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. The Greek eis is not translated as because of forgiveness. Check out the other translations and they say the same thing. Jesus’ last command (Matthew 28:18-20) was to make disciples by baptizing. Jesus never told us to pray a prayer or even ask Him into our hearts. You have said that we do not have to do anything for salvation. I agree. Praying a prayer or asking Jesus to come into a heart is work. I understand we are saved by the grace of Jesus, I understand through our faith we have to believe that Jesus paid for our sins on the cross and resurrected from the grave. Jesus never said we were saved by faith only. In fact James 2:19- “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.” James later says in James 2:24- “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” Only scripture that says faith alone and we are not saved by it.Check out Ephesians 2:4-16 and Colossians 2:9-15 because they parallel each other. Check our Paul’s conversion in Acts. Why would Paul tell people something different when he had to have faith, he confessed Jesus was Lord, he was repenting when he was blind and immediately he was baptized before taking food. Ephesians 2:8,9 Faith and confession Romans 10:9,10, Repentance and Baptism (Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16).
    I have to disagree.
    Rich

  455. jimfloyd12 says:

    Rich,

    Since you stopped by and took time to comment I will take time to reply. I will put your statement in quotes and my responses in ( ).

    “First off, should our life radically change if Jesus is the Lord of our life? Should we be willing to let Jesus reign in our whole life? Should we obey and follow Jesus? I don’t think that is much to ask from Jesus since He died for you and me when we were still sinners.”

    (Yes. Should believers make Jesus Lord of their life in a sense? Sure. But that is not the best way to explain it. And being Lord of one’s life so to speak is not equal to salvation or faith etc. It has to do with the realm of our Christian walk. Should we obey? Yes, the Bible says we should. Should we abide in Christ and learn more as we go? Yes. Is it to much to ask? Nope, not at all. But remember it is not too much to ask of a believer. Not to become a believer. That is the difference. Also, if you don’t do these things it does not mean you are not a believer a la Kyle Idleman’s logic. More on that later since you mentioned James 2.)

    “We must have faith what Jesus did on the cross for our sins, buried and arose from the grave three days later. People understood this on the day of Pentacost because Acts 2:37 tells us after Peter’s sermon they were cut to the heart. They knew response was needed. Obedience was needed.”

    (Yes, this much is true indeed. The obedience there is spoken of elsewhere in scripture. The obedience needed in response to the gospel is faith. Not faith plus works.)

    “Peter tells them in verse 38 to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. The Greek eis is not translated as because of forgiveness. Check out the other translations and they say the same thing.”

    (That is not so, baptism 100 percent is not required for a person’s salvation. If you are diligent to compare scripture with scripture you will see this. For a start, try the verses listed on my Faith Alone page. The Bible does not contradict itself.)

    “Jesus’ last command (Matthew 28:18-20) was to make disciples by baptizing. Jesus never told us to pray a prayer or even ask Him into our hearts. You have said that we do not have to do anything for salvation. I agree. Praying a prayer or asking Jesus to come into a heart is work.”

    (I am not talking about making disciples. I am talking ao=bout sharing the gospel and one’s response to the gospel which needs to be faith, not a commitment to discipleship. Please review the middle part of Romans 10. How shall they believe if there is no preacher? You said praying a prayer is a work and I agree but discipleship is even more of a work. Remember salvation is not a contract where promises are made. Nowhere in scripture is a person told to pray for eternal life. I have not be stating that if you actually read the post.)

    “ I understand we are saved by the grace of Jesus, I understand through our faith we have to believe that Jesus paid for our sins on the cross and resurrected from the grave. Jesus never said we were saved by faith only.”

    (Oh really?? Try John 3:16 just for starters. So that leads me to believe then that either you are contradicting yourself as to what you said before… “You have said that we do not have to do anything for salvation. I agree.” ..or more likely you think that God just waves a magic wand so to speack and regenerates someone thus making him go through the motions. Only those two option make sense based on what you have said.)

    “ In fact James 2:19- “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.” James later says in James 2:24- “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” Only scripture that says faith alone and we are not saved by it.”

    (Um, not sure what that last line means but anyway you are classically using this passage out of the actual context. It is speaking in context to believers …already eternally saved people….and is a rebuke to them for there bad testimony as believers. 2:24 has to do with justification in the eyes of men, not God. So basically it means that the unsaved need to be shown a difference in our lives otherwise why would they want what we have? Why would they think well of our Savior if we don’t actually show them love?)

    “Check out Ephesians 2:4-16 and Colossians 2:9-15 because they parallel each other.”

    (I will post them below with my comments:

    Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    (No works, no prayers, no discipleship, no baptism…. It is unearned and by grace (unmerited favor)

    Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Our positional standing regardless of performance.)

    Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (We are not made to believe, but do receive salvation through faith… alone… because it is afterall by grace (unmerited). IT was purchased by Christ,not us, nor is it repaid by us.)
    Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (“should” not “will”)
    Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (made nigh by the blood the moment we believed)
    Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (the cross was the victory, this does not mean that the believer does not still have an old nature but that the enmity is done away with.)

    Col 2 has a wonder picture of baptism and what it figures but note verse 6. Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: (If one has received Christ as Savior then the command for that person is to walk in Him. This is an instruction and not something automatic. There are many like instructions given to believers in the NT and many many examples of believers not being obedient yet being …believers. Try the Corinthians, Galatians, those in James or Hebrews etc.)

    “Check our Paul’s conversion in Acts. Why would Paul tell people something different when he had to have faith, he confessed Jesus was Lord, he was repenting when he was blind and immediately he was baptized before taking food. Ephesians 2:8,9 Faith and confession Romans 10:9,10, Repentance and Baptism (Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16).
    I have to disagree.”

    (Paul was saved the same way as anyone… by grace through faith… just with different surrounding circumstances. Be careful with Romans 10:9-10 not to also take that out of context. The confession is for believers, the faith is for sinners..unredeemed. Repentance in context of faith is a change of mind as to what one is believing. Notice Mark 16:16. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Notice it says the he that believeth not, not he that believeth not and is not baptized.

    Consider John 3

    Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    The picture given is the look of faith. Just as Moses lifted up the serpentJesus was lifted up as the Savior to all who look upon Him for it meaning they hear the good news of His sacrifice and trust Him for it. It was not look and be baptized, look and commit to discipleship, look and turn from your sinning etc. He that believes…what?…has eternal life…those who have not believed…not received it by faith… are already condemned. Water baptism and works have nothing to do with eternal life itself, only the testimony of the believer. Testimony.)

    Rich, i challenge you to prayerfully reconsider. The scripture disagrees with your assessment.

    Jim F

  456. Curtis M says:

    “Repent and be baptized”
    Now this is exactly what Believing Jews needed to do whom Peter is addressing . They needed to (change their thinking) lay-down their religious rituals embracing Jesus The Christ as their only way to God

    At the very Least Kyle Idelman is Church of Christ denomantion and would whole hardily agree that souls are justified by Grace through Faith would also say it would be heretical to say other wise. Then turn around and say BUT you need to be baptized in order to Live for Christ which is just as heretical as saying you need to be baptized to be saved It is from this doctrinal error the Not a Fan book launches from. It is within the very nature of mankind to want to work for and or help God out to live the christian life When the Christian Life is Lived By Faith the same way a soul is saved.
    understanding a very basic fundamental biblical identification principal of baptism is key to living the Christian Life
    Romans is completely dry . their is no power in water baptism (church of Christ by twisting scripture says there is power) however it is an identification principal the only response to Grace is Faith.
    lifestyle change or what ever you want to call change is produced not by you but is a by product of delighting ourselves in our perfect position in Christ Jesus. under the “Law of The Spirit” the Holy Spirit takes care of all the rest.
    not only Church of Christ but all of denominational Chrurchanity totally miss this simple biblical Truth and try to right arm Jesus Christ off right tackle and attempt as saved souls use the Law to live the christian life and live a defeated frustrated christian life.

    Lives lived in Christ is Vertical and invisible it is not church identity . nothing external produces spirituality it is in our thinking . anytime we start looking at ourselves for proof or evidence of salvation we our out of fellowship with God . need to confess as sin and look unto our perfect position in Christ Jesus.
    realy it is uncomfortable to walk by faith and easy for a soul to believe need to work for evidence of salvation.

    col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him

    rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

    11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

  457. jimfloyd12 says:

    Rich,

    You said, “Dear Jim,
    We do both agree that faith has to be our foundation to be saved. The problem I have had with the “Faith Only” position is that Ephesians 2 is used as we are saved only by faith alone. Sorry, but it does not say that. We are save by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ, but not just our faith. You are the first one to say that the sinners prayer is not in that passage. Thank you. It also does not say baptism is not apart of the salvation process either. Many verses point to faith and baptism in all the conversions in the book of Acts.”

    (Yes, actually Eph 2:8-9 and many other verses state that salvation is received through faith alone… why because as the verse states it is by grace. It is by God’s loving unmerited favor in this case specifically as shown to us through the sacrificial death of His Son for our sin. So by grace it is offered, through faith we receive. Now some define grace as part of the way it is received as in those who are Calvinists or those who hold to regeneration before faith etc. Basically a reformed definition of grace. To them is more of a divine power / enabling / forcing of an elect person to believe / receive the gift. I reject that.

    Right, there is no such thing as saying a prayer to receive the free gift. It is currently being offered by grace to all and may be received… freely…. by any who hear the gospel and believe it. Not any who believe the gospel and are baptized. This verse does not say that and I agrgue that it excludes it because it doesn’t fit with grace. Faith is the only response that is non-meritorious. Perhaps it would help to consider what water baptism is. It is a public testimony in picture of what has happened spiritually. It is biblical to instruct believers on baptism and to actually baptize believers by immersion after they have believed the gospel. Kyle Idleman and one of the other pastors at that church view it in a lordship sense. So in one way they don’t say it exactly that we are saved by water baptism they do say that if a person is not willing to be water baptized that they are not probably a believer. However, we know that the Bible states no such thing. Not for baptism and not for any part of ongoing discipleship. A lordshipper like Kyle will that that a person falling in discipleship has reason to be fearful that they are not saved.)

    Maybe I can comment further and what else you said tomorrow.

    Jim

  458. Jon Dekkers says:

    Why not put your last name to your article?

  459. jimfloyd12 says:

    Jon,

    No reason other than most of my readers when I started my blog knew me as “Jim F”. I signed a lot of comments that way over at Expreacherman. My name is on some of my newer things such as the James 2 explained page and it is in my sign-in name for comments. Even on comments on that very article. I might eventually do a more personal “about me” page but I am not in a rush to promote myself. Did you like or dislike this post?

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