How to Be Saved In Their Own Words: Part 2

As promised, here is part two in this series starting with John MacArthur. Please consider some of the quotes and ask yourself if they are actually Biblical. If you think they are not then feel free to comment as to why not.  If you think they are, then state a clear and concise reason as to why so and I’ll consider your comment. I can assure you that there is much talk below about turning from sin, sorrow, works after salvation, obedience, commitments to discipleship, and even faith but is it just me or has the way of salvation been missed or added to?

MacArthur
John MacArthur:

“Children old enough to be saved can grasp the concept of coming to Christ with an obedient heart, and letting Him be boss in their lives.”

“They need to be told that Jesus expects to be obeyed, and they will understand even better than some adults that trusting Jesus means obeying Him. The importance of obedience needs to be emphasized repeatedly, even after the child makes a profession of faith.”

“You must repent of all that dishonors God. – Isaiah 55:7; Luke 9:23”

“You must believe in Christ as Lord and Savior, and be willing to follow after Him. – Romans 10:9”

Piper
John Piper:

“Believing in Jesus is a soul coming to Jesus to be satisfied in all that he is. That is my definition of faith on the basis of John 6:35. This is not…a decision,”

“Repent” means to turn from all the deceitful promises of sin. “Faith” means being satisfied with all that God promises to be for us in Jesus. “He who believes in me,” Jesus says, “shall never thirst” (John 6:35). We do not earn our salvation. We cannot merit it (Romans 4:4-5). It is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). It is a free gift (Romans 3:24). We will have it if we cherish it above all things (Matthew 13:44). When we do that, God’s aim in creation is accomplished: He is glorified in us and we are satisfied in him – forever.

“Turn from the deceitful promises of sin. Call upon Jesus to save you from the guilt and punishment and bondage. “All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved” (Romans 10:13). Start banking your hope on all that God is for you in Jesus. Break the power of sin’s promises by faith in the superior satisfaction of God’s promises. Begin reading the Bible to find his precious and very great promises, which can set you free (2 Peter 1:3-4). Find a Bible-believing church and begin to worship and grow together with other people who treasure Christ above all things (Philippians 3:7).”

Washer
Paul Washer:

“A genuine recognition of our sinfulness and guilt will also lead to genuine sorrow, shame and even hatred for what we have done.”

“Apparent sincerity of confession alone is never definite evidence of genuine repentance. It must be accompanied by a turning away from sin.”

“True conversion: A true Christian is a new creation and will live a life that reflects God’s radical work of re-creation in his/her life. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 2 Corinthians 5:17

“Assurance is based upon self-examination in the light of Scripture. Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you unless indeed you fail the test? 2 Corinthians 13:5 “

chan
Francis Chan:

“Salvation has nothing to do with my performance. If I’m truly saved than my actions are going to show. All through the New Testament a person’s faith is shown through his actions. New Testament teachings are clear that someone who loves God and doesn’t obey God is a liar, and the truth is not in him. It’s not popular to question someone’s actions and salvation, and Scripture tells us to test ourselves and see if we’re really in the faith. I believe 100% in grace, that I did nothing, and I’m completely saved by the cross. By the grace of God we believe and are saved. If someone has the Holy Spirit in them, there will be fruit and there will not be a lukewarm life.”

Platt
David Platt:

“The modern-day gospel says, “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. Therefore, follow these steps, and you can be saved.” Meanwhile, the biblical gospel says, “You are an enemy of God, dead in your sin, and in your present state of rebellion, you are not even ale to see that you need life, much less to cause yourself to come to life. Therefore, you are radically depend ment on God to do something in your life that you could never do.”

“The just and loving Creator of the universe has looked upon hopelessly sinful people and sent his Son, God in the flesh, to bear his wrath against sin on the cross and to show his power over sin in the Resurrection so that all who trust in him will be reconciled to God forever.”

“Faith that leads to salvation involves turning from sin and self-sufficiency. We turn to Jesus and trust in Him as Lord, confess Him as Lord and Savior.”

Notice specifically here how David Platt goes on to define faith in relation to salvation as turning from sin.  I honestly couldn’t make up half of these things but there you have it in their own words. (I have kept the links to these quotes for my own reference.)

What would you say to a lost person to give a more clear way of how to obtain salvation? I will have my complete take at the end of the series.

Next up… Billy Graham and others

God Bless,

Jim F

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23 Responses to How to Be Saved In Their Own Words: Part 2

  1. Jon says:

    I’m not qualified to tackle all of the above statements but I will make one comment. Piper said:”We do not earn our salvation. We cannot merit it.It is by grace through faith.It is a free gift.” That all sounds good BUT, then he says: “We will have it if we cherish it above all things.” Wrong! If it is indeed a free gift then we simply receive it(by grace through faith in Christ). A gift may indeed not be cherished and be left to collect dust on a shelf. If the giver saw this and got upset and took back the gift because it wasn’t being appreciated then it was never really a gift in the first place. That’s how I see it anyways. Best of luck with your blog Jim!

  2. jimfloyd12 says:

    Jon,

    You bring up a very good point. Many preachers and teachers use what sounds like part of the gospel or way of salvation but then go on to add in parts of something else. In this case Piper uses the idea that the gift must be cherished. This is contrary to scripture because it is man’s reasoning and not what the text says. We must all be careful to pay close attention always as to what exactly a person says concerning the gospel or how to obtain salvation from sin.

    Thanks for the support.

    Jim F

  3. Sue says:

    Hello Jim 🙂

    Reading and thinking has had me digging deep into my notes by Dr. Robert Dean’s ‘Doctrine of Faith’. I am taking the liberty of posting what I think may be of value at the start of your blog ‘Standing for the Faith’! Especially after reading a recent subjective LS understanding of faith that has no connection with what the Bible means by ‘faith’ at all. If you agree, it could underline how we are to stand for what ‘faith’ and who is using which method.

    There are basically four systems of human perception used to define faith. Rationalism, Empericism, Mysticism (loads of that) and Faith (Biblical)

    a. Rationalism asserts that ultimate truth can be deduced from the principles of reason alone which is in itself, superior to and independent of any other source of perception. Rationalism ultimately places faith in the autonomous use of human reason based on the rigorous use of logic, developing conclusions from first principles. Unfortunately for rationalism, these first principles must be assumed and thus are based on faith.

    b. Empiricism is knowledge from perception by observation and experience rather than by theory. All ideas are derived from some sensuous experience using the eyes, ears, nose, touch, etc, having no innate or a priori conceptions. Empiricism, like rationalism, develops arguments using rigorous rules of logic to develop conclusions from its starting point. However, like rationalism, its starting point can only be assumed, and it too is ultimately grounded upon faith in man’s sensory perception and ability to interpret this data correctly.

    c. Mysticism is knowledge based on intuition or direct insight and rejects reason and logic as inherent to truth. Mysticism is pure subjectivism and is often irrational and emotional.

    d. Faith is a non-meritorious system of perception based on confidence in the authority and the veracity of another. (Jesus) Faith is not based on one’s own knowledge, as is Rationalism or Empiricism. In a real sense faith underlies all the other systems of perception. In Rationalism faith has as its object autonomous human reason, in Empiricism, faith has as its object man’s ability to interpret his experience correctly, in Mysticism, faith has its object in man’s ability to intuit correctly and interpret those intuitions correctly.

    In Christianity, the object of faith for salvation is the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross. In the Christian life, the object of faith is the promises and principles of the Word of God, summarized as Bible doctrine. When the object of faith is the Scripture and the revelation of God, both reason and experience are utilized but in a way that is consistent with and dependent upon the revealed Truth of the Bible.

    Thus faith is neither irrational, anti-rational, nor anti- logic, but uses the rules of reason and logic to under-stand and comprehend what is initially perceived by faith. As Augustine said, “I believe that I might understand.”

    2. Perception by faith is always non-meritorious. It depends on the authority, veracity, and ability of some-one else. Faith depends upon the validity of its object for its own merit.

    3. Faith means to trust, rely on, have confidence in, believe, accept something to be true. In order to operate faith relies first on understanding, the comprehension of the mentality of the soul, then volition, to accept what is understood as true.

    4. Faith does not mean to commit to, to invite, to feel, or to have a relationship with. The Bible makes it clear in numerous passages that salvation is by faith (John 3:16, 18, 32; 29:30; Acts 16:31) not by inviting Jesus anywhere, He is the one who invites, “Come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden” not by commitment, He is the one who committed to save us, not by how we feel, or by having a relationship with Him. Judas had a relationship with Jesus and he was never saved. The issue in faith is to believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins.

    I shall stop here in case you find this all too much. If you approve, I can post the all important definition of Biblical Faith. 🙂
    Preview of coming attractions:
    1. Faith is a MENTAL ACTIVITY triggered by VOLITION. As such, faith cannot be AN emotion because emotion cannot respond to a command.

  4. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Sue,

    You may post the definition of faith that you have and we can discuss it. I think of it two different ways one would be standing for the Christian faith or our Christian beliefs. The other would be the definition of faith itself. It is too bad that many turn the faith needed for conversion into a term that includes things like sorrow, repentance, submission etc.

    As far as Augustine goes…, he was one that himself had some majorly erroneous views. I’ll talk more more about him in a later post.

    “Faith depends upon the validity of its object for its own merit.” This stood out to me. We know that the reason that faith saves is because the Object of our faith is capable to save and does so based on Christ’s righteousness.

    Philosophers, scientists, mystics, and the like have tried to figure out what is truth but have come up short because they either reject absolute truth or they make themselves ultimately the decision makers as to what is truth. How much better is to to take God at His Word by faith and know that He IS truth and has revealed absolute truth to us. We live in a world where even many who are called Christian are not and do not believe the truth much less those that openly oppose God outright. It is indeed time to take a stand for the faith.

    The verses that I frequently go back to are Eph 6:10 – 20

    Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
    Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
    Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
    Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
    Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
    Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
    Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
    Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
    Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
    Eph 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

    Blessings in Christ,

    Jim F

  5. Sue says:

    Hello Jim

    Amen! My ‘emergent’ son shocked me when he said the truth can never be known. He looked blank when I quoted “Jesus is the way the truth and the life’ and ‘you SHALL know the Truth and THE Truth shall set you free’. Sadly there is a lot of it about!

    Augustine is a fact of history. He is the father of Papist Rome, Beza’s Calvinism and Hitler’s Reich. To quote him is certainly not an endorsement of him – but in context, that quote is spot on
    “Thus faith is neither irrational, anti-rational, nor anti- logic, but uses the rules of reason and logic to under-stand and comprehend what is initially perceived by faith. As Augustine said, “I believe that I might understand.”

    Belief/faith/trust are all the same Greek noun ‘pistis’. ‘Heart’ and ‘mind’ are the English translation of the Greek ‘kardia’ which describes the seat of our REASONING which is the soul. LS has developed a false definition of ‘pistis’ – faith/belief/assurance/trust creating a false distinction for ‘heart faith’ and ‘mind faith’ = a serious linguistic error. This is the human reasoning of MYSTICISM. All who uphold this false distinction of heart faith and mind faith, whether they realize it or not, are practicing LS mysticism based on unstable intuition, feelings, emotion. ..

    Jim, I apologise if this comes over as ‘I’m telling you’, I have no doubt you are well versed with this and more beside. I am just trying to look at the foundations to see where things have gone wrong.

    I must end now, work to do, but I will post the rest of ‘Doctrine of Faith’ later in the day. Thank you for that!

    God bless you and this vital blog determined to stand for The Faith.

  6. Sue says:

    Doctrine of Faith part 2 Dr.Robert Dean

    B. Etymology.
    1. Greek.
    a. The noun pistis.
    (1) Used as an attribute, pistis means to trust or rely on something, Tit 2:10; 2 Thes 1:4. Titus 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. 2Th. 1:4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

    (2) In the active sense, pistis means faith, confidence, trust, faith as a recognition of and acceptance of Bible doctrine. In the active sense, faith is used in three ways.

    (a) Saving faith, Eph 2:8; 1 Jn 5:4-5.

    (b) The three stages of the ‘faith-rest drill’, Rom 3:20;
    Heb 4:3.

    (c) The assimilation of Bible doctrine into the thinking
    of your soul.

    (3) The passive meaning of pistis is what is believed, the content of faith, Bible doctrine. Gal 1:23; 2 Pet 1:5; 1 Tim 1:19, 4:1,6; Heb 11. Gal. 1:23 but only, they kept hearing, “He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith [Bible Doctrine] which he once tried to destroy.”

    b. The noun pistos, used as an adjective in the passive sense means being trustworthy, worthy of trust, faithful, dependable, and inspiring trust. In the active sense, it means trusting or believing.

    c. The verb pisteuo means to believe, to trust something to someone, to use someone as an object of faith, Gal 2:16. Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh be justified. It only takes a little more than no faith at all to be saved, Acts 16:31.

    Conclusion: The Object of Faith at salvation is the person and work of Jesus Christ: 1Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also
    received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 1Cor. 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

    Faith for the spiritual life, the Faith-rest drill, is directed toward the promises of Scripture and the principles of Bible doctrine. This doctrine comprises our faith, to have doctrine without application , “faith without works” (James 2:24-26) means we cannot benefit from our new position in Christ.

    C. Meaning of Faith

    1. Faith is a MENTAL ACTIVITY triggered by VOLITION. As such, faith cannot be AN emotion because emotion cannot respond to a command.

    2. Faith is always directed toward an object which can be expressed in a proposition. A proposition is the expression of a thought which can be verified or falsified. Therefore faith is not a function of emotion but of reason. YOU BELIEVE WITH YOUR MIND ONLY. There is not such thing as believing with your ‘heart’ defined as emotion or feelings.

    3. Therefore you do not believe directly in a person, or come to salvation through a relationship with Jesus, but first believe the propositions in Scripture that inform you about Jesus and His saving work on the cross. This means faith is rational not irrational. Though
    what is believed may be irrational, faith itself is not.

    4. Therefore, faith is an activity of the mentality of the soul which is directed toward first and foremost a proposition.

    a. The Scripture is the object of faith for the immature believer, 1 Jn 1:9; 1 Cor 11:31; Ps 35, 32:5, 38:18; Prov 28:13.

    b. For the mature believer, Doctrine is the object of faith, and the integrity of God is the basis for understanding the forgiveness of our sins through confession of sin and the filling ministry of God the Holy Spirit who
    illuminates our minds to the truth and teaches them to us.

    5. Faith has no merit in itself–all the merit lies in the object of faith. Ex. it doesn’t matter how much faith I have (or how sincere I am) that I have $1,000 in my checking account if I have only $1 I’m in trouble.
    6. Faith as an intellectual activity excludes emotion, irrationalism, and mysticism. These are
    therefore destructive to salvation and the spiritual life. The spiritual life is based on reason, on the right use of the mentality of the soul which is the essential aspect of man as the image of God.

    7. Faith is rational and logical in conformity with the ultimate Person of the Universe, the Logos of God.

    8. All the faith in the world secures nothing but condemnation from the integrity of God. We are born with faith. We first learn vocabulary by faith. Faith in itself is nothing, however. . .

    9. The tiniest bit of faith in Christ, faith like a mustard seed, secures eternal salvation. It only takes a little more faith than no faith at all. It is the object of faith that counts, not the worthiness of the one with faith.

    10. Faith is not something we do, but it is the channel by which we appropriate what God has done for us. When we understand the principles of Scripture and accept it as true, then we apply it. This is faith, this is done with our INTELLECT, not with our emotions.

    APPLICATION
    1. There is no Biblical distinction between “head” and “heart” belief. Heart in the Bible always refers to the thinking, the cognitive mentality of the soul.
    2. Saving faith is not a different kind of faith but a faith with a saving object, the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross. {EX. Song “I Know Whom I Have Believed” Verse 2.. “I know not how this saving faith to me He did Impart.” This views saving faith as a different kind of faith then everyday faith. It is the kind of faith that saves, making faith meritorious, not the unique object of faith, Jesus Christ, what saves. Verse 3 verifies this “Revealing Jesus through the word, Creating faith in Him.” This reflects the distortion of the definition of faith that entered Calvinism after Theodore Bezae, Calvin’s successor, redefined faith. Calvin wrote on John 3:33 That to believe the Gospel is nothing more than to assent to the truths [propositions] which God
    has revealed. Thus, this popular hymn promotes a heretical view of faith.}

    3. Salvation is not based on a personal relationship with Christ, Judas had one, James had one, all his
    brothers and sisters had one, yet none of them was saved until they put their faith alone in Christ alone.
    Judas never did, the others did after the resurrection. Salvation is based on the acceptance of a true
    proposition that Jesus died on the cross as a substitute for our sins. After all, all we have is the propositions of the Bible, that is the only way we can come to know Jesus.

    Today we live in an era of anti-intellectualism and mysticism, an era when reason is debunked as of
    value in the spiritual realm. Put the mind in neutral we’re told and engage the emotions, yet this is
    completely contrary to the Bible which emphasizes putting the emotions in neutral and engaging the
    mind.

    Principle: If you emphasize and rely on your emotions as a believer you will fail in the Christian life. You must put your focus on DOCTRINE You know you are exercising faith when what the Bible says is more real to you than how you feel or you’re subjective impressions.
    Remember what John wrote in John 1:1In the beginning was the Logos, logos means reason, thought, logic, not emotion. Emotion was not in the beginning, reason and thought were…

  7. jimfloyd12 says:

    Sue,

    “LS has developed a false definition of ‘pistis’ – faith/belief/assurance/trust creating a false distinction for ‘heart faith’ and ‘mind faith’ = a serious linguistic error.”

    This is quite right Sue. There really is no difference between heart faith and head faith. We should also not be trying to look for kinds of faith but faith that is in the right Person.

    “Jim, I apologise if this comes over as ‘I’m telling you’, I have no doubt you are well versed with this and more beside. I am just trying to look at the foundations to see where things have gone wrong.”

    Don’t worry; I understand that we must keep in mind those who also may be reading. This blog is here for all. You’ll find that I am easy to work with and enjoy the dialog.

    “1. Faith is a MENTAL ACTIVITY triggered by VOLITION. As such, faith cannot be AN emotion because emotion cannot respond to a command.”

    It is always interesting to me how some rail on the idea of “mental assent” in regards to faith. However it is a straw-man argument. Mental activity triggered by volition, that is, trusting or relying on Christ alone based on His finished work for salvation is NOT “mental assent.”

    “5. Faith has no merit in itself–all the merit lies in the object of faith. Ex. it doesn’t matter how much faith I have (or how sincere I am) that I have $1,000 in my checking account if I have only $1 I’m in trouble.”

    This is a key point to make to Calvinists. I have had some that have argued with me that faith would be a work if it is something that we do. It is not however because the Bible contrasts faith with works.

    “9. The tiniest bit of faith in Christ, faith like a mustard seed, secures eternal salvation. It only takes a little more faith than no faith at all. It is the object of faith that counts, not the worthiness of the one with faith.”

    This is good news for all because we are unworthy. There is no pre-cleaning stage for sin. We don’t come half way to God and have Him drag us the rest of the way. We have to come in sin trust Him to save us. The Bible says that Christ died for us while we were yet sinners.
    “10. Faith is not something we do, but it is the channel by which we appropriate what God has done for us. When we understand the principles of Scripture and accept it as true, then we apply it. This is faith, this is done with our INTELLECT, not with our emotions.”

    Again, faith is not something that we do as in a meritorious work for salvation. We do however believe. God does not believe for us. There will be Spirit conviction of our need and illumination of the gospel but the choice is ours. Our choice in no way impedes God’s authority over all things. It is God’s will that all should come to repentance. Why would God’s Word have us to repent (change our minds and believe the gospel) if it were impossible? Emotions are extraneous to conversion. There are some that say sorrow is required as a proof of genuineness of faith. Show me in the Bible where it says that in context and in relation to eternal salvation. Sorrow may be present, but it is not quantifiable nor is it proof of anything eternal.

    Thanks for the good work.

    God Bless,

    Jim F

  8. Sue says:

    Dear Jim
    I am thankful you recognise the ‘good work’ in ‘Doctrine of Faith’ that I slaved over to copy and paste. 😉 So very pleased that you have allowed Dr. Robert Deans hard work as a genuine scholar (Free Grace) be made known to a wider audience.

    (Link removed by site admin)

    As often as I have tried, so many times, to explain this in my own words, the fact that I am not a Greek or Hebrew scholar bodes against me. My Greek and Hebrew are basic to say the least – and yet, even I, can see LS view on repentance is ‘off’. In spite of my efforts, I still hear the plaintive cry from LS gospel adherents pleading for ‘someone’ with the Greek to support their LS view – of course it cannot be upheld by either linguistics or by exegesis of Scripture.

    Eisegesis faith based on emotions, while beating one’s chest to ‘work up’ grief and godly sorrow, is false repentance and hasn’t anything to do with Biblical Repentance. This has come about through Rome and their false teaching on the need for PENITENCE.

    The Papacy taught the need for feelings of grief and guilt from the biblically illiterate and created PENITANCE, the Penitent became very good money spinners for the building of god’s kingdom on earth and his residence at the Vatican.

    Tetzel beat his drum for the guilt ridden to buy Papal indulgences for theirs and dead loved one’s deliverance from non-existent ‘purgatory’. I can ‘hear’ today’s ‘pedlars of another gospel’ calling sad souls to the front for ‘special prayer’ with a resounding chorus of “As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs’’ 😦

    There is no benefit for Rome and her daughters when everything is FREE. FREE Grace through Faith alone in Christ alone = treasures in Heaven. Praise The Lord!
    Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.

    God bless your endeavour for THE Faith Jim.

  9. jimfloyd12 says:

    Sue,

    I am also no Greek scholar. I can still however recognize doctrinal truth and error through careful study and the Holy Spirit’s help. Dr, Dean appears to have an excellent free grace doctrinal statement.

    You are right to make the connection back to Rome and I especially liked this statement, “There is no benefit for Rome and her daughters when everything is FREE.” I think that sums it up pretty well.

  10. john says:

    Jim, thank you for this series exposing many of the different ways that the Gospel is altered. Just think, if any of these guys were right in their views of salvation, they are each different in some way. Yet, they are probably more comfortable with one another than they would be with you or me. The common denominator seems to be that they frustrate grace. I think Einstein once said (although not in relation to our topic) “If you can’t explain it to a six year old, you don’t understand it yourself”.

    As you continue to show folks how people get the Gospel wrong, it might be helpful to show the plan of salvation in its clear, simple, scriptural form.

  11. Jim F says:

    Hi John,

    The last part of this series will have a clear explanation of the gospel and I am working on a few stand alone pages for that. I think that it is true many of these guys complicate the gospel and turn it into something that it is not. Yes, they will be and mostly are tolerable of each other. Free grace would be scoffed at by them because it doesn’t fit with their Lordship or Calvinistic mold. The labels no Lordship, easy believism, or antinomian would be erroneously and almost certainly applied to us. Many do not understand things outside of the reformed presuppositions.

    Part of my reasoning behind this initial series is to alert Christians just how bad things are and how important it is going to be to keep standing for the faith. Just a few year ago I would not have known that things were actually as bad as they are. I talk to men at times that show some concern but some are still unconvinced or do not see the deception that has crept into churches.

  12. Jim,

    Great discussion on those who perpetrate foul errors, calling them Biblical truths. Too many of them.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  13. Jim F says:

    Sue, all

    I have read through Dr Dean’s doctrinal statement and am greatly troubled by one of the sections.

    Jack Weaver from Expreacherman.com has sent me the following as he and others have picked up on it as well.

    “”The first death of the Savior was spiritual as darkness descended upon the cross and the Father poured out our sins upon Him and then judged Him. The great violence of this activity was hidden from the eyes of all He suffered alone in the darkness. Upon completion of His work He said, “It is finished” (John 19:30).
    The work for our reconciliation was completed. The door was open for anyone to believe in Him and gain eternal life for He died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). He paid for our sins while still physically alive. He then dismissed His own spirit to the Father (John 10:17–18; Luke 23:46) and died physically.”

    Jim, this doesn’t sound right!! It seems to contradict scripture (see below). Maybe I’m splitting hairs, but teaching that Christ paid for our sins while He was still physically alive leaves me to wonder. It seems like a middle ground between the Gospel and a cross-less gospel.

    Romans 5:8-10
    “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

    Hebrews 9:14
    “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

    and
    Hebrews 9:16
    “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.”

    and
    Hebrews 9:22
    “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood and without shedding of blood is no remission.”

    One of our regulars at ExPreacherMan.com commented to me personally: “Dean’s position is somewhat akin to an old heretical position in which it has been stated that Jesus died on the cross only as a man and not as the God-man. Think about this: Had Jesus not been both God and man his death would not be efficacious for our sins.

    It is obvious that Dean is certainly clear in some areas of doctrine but the examples above also show clearly, he is way off track in this important area, the Blood Sacrifice of Jesus.

    Perhaps y’all would like to discuss Dean’s specific statements above on your article. Could I be misunderstanding Dean?? In my mind, he very clearly means what he says.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack”

    Nothing can be more important to the doctrine of salvation than the blood sacrifice of Christ. There is no remission of sin without the shed blood of Christ. I also do not believe that Christ died a spiritual death. He never sinned thus never died spiritually. What He did was live a perfect life and laid down His physical life as a lamb without blemish and without spot and thus His death and shed blood satisfied God’s wrath and judgement on sin. Let’s be clear. There is no spiritual death of Christ but He did take our sin just as the lambs in the old testament took on the sin of the offender. Those sacrifices were a picture of the coming perfect Lamb.

    I would like others to also weigh in on this matter as I believe it is an important one. I’d also like to make crystal clear that I do not in anyway endorse the crossless gospel. I am not sure at this point if Dean is a crossless gospel advocate but we should always be on guard for it.

    Sue, this is also nothing against you or anyone else that may have benefited from some of Dr. Dean’s teachings. There are times where we just need to be objective.

    Side note in case any one is wondering: (I do not believe that Christ went to hell and faced punishment there before the resurrection. This is often another misunderstood aspect of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.)

    Thanks

    Jim F

  14. Sue says:

    Oer 😦

    Jim, I am not really equipped to answer for RD, but I can tell you what I know from personal experience.

    I know for certain, RD is not cross-less because he warned against it. I’m fairly sure I also heard him reject that Jesus went to hell, unlike Hagin and Copeland et al, any different and I’m sure I would have picked up on that.

    Regarding Jesus dismissing His Spirit after the work was done, it seemed sensible to me because no one took his Life from Him. His Life was in the Blood as it was shed and poured out from him, His life was ebbing away but was not the cause of His actual death. He gave up His Spirit willingly unlike when the Passover lamb was sacrificed John10:18 I thought this was an important distinction as I did pray about it and had to leave it to The Lord.

    Regarding ‘spiritual death’; I have always understood that it is separation from the Father. Jesus crying ‘My God, My God, why have you forsaken me was the Son being separated from the Father – spiritual death. RD does not teach that Jesus went to hell and was punished there; nor that He was ‘only a man’ on the cross. That would defy John10:18. Jesus did go to Hades (death, not hell) but was not left there Acts2:27,31 He did proclaim His victory to the spirits in Hades and emptied Paradise is what I remember. (1Peter3:19,20)

    I admit I have never been happy that his position on the blood is the same as MacArthur’s … that is an important point, but as always, being alone, I have to rely on The Holy Spirit to guide me through Scripture minefields.

    Please check with RD himself via his site, I don’t want to misrepresent him in any way.
    Dear Jim, I do not feel ‘put out’ this is something that must be done, it is a serious error to presume what a man teaches and I always hold all teaching before the Lord. Very often I get immediate direction, sometime I have to wait – this may well be one of those moments. I don’t ever want to be stubborn and un-teachable, only pride can be harmed and that’s a good thing.

    PS I expect to be off line for a few days this week, so I won’t be able to respond for a while. 🙂

  15. Sue says:

    Hello Jim and Jack

    Dr Robert Dean does not teach, or suggest, that Jesus divested himself of His Divinity on the cross. He teaches Christ’s Deity, The Hypostatic Union in Hebrews 1:1 audio Hebrews 14b.

    Definition: The hypostatic union describes the union of two natures, divine and human, in the one person of Jesus Christ. These natures are inseparably united without loss or mixture of separate identity, without loss or transfer of properties or attributes, the union being personal and eternal. Jesus is the UNDIMINISHED DEITY and true humanity in one person forever.

  16. Sue says:

    Hello Jim and Jack

    Robert Dean discredits the cross-less gospel.
    His own words in audio and file Hebrews #106 Salvation and Eternal Security.

    Robert Dean states “There is a sad thing that has been going on … It is splitting the Grace Evangelical Society. For those of you who aren’t familiar with that, when Prof Hodges (Zane Hodges) who was a Greek prof at Dallas Seminary started writing some books clarifying the issues between a pure free grace salvation and Lordship salvation, and what was coming out of the reformed camp …

    … As those things became clear there were a number of people who really began to understand the nature of grace – that grace means it’s free, no strings attached. It’s not you are saved and it’s free as long as you do something later on…It’s free. It’s a gift. He made that clear. There were many, many pastors and theologians who organized themselves together in what became known as the Grace Evangelical Society. They produced a bi-annual journal (I guess), annual meetings, things of this nature.

    In the last few years there have been some theological issues that have slowly reared their ugly heads. Some of us became acquainted with that here at the Chafer’s Pastor Conference in March ’06, a year and a half ago when John Nimela presented a paper related to understanding or accepting the gift of eternal life which God had offered. The illustration they keep coming up with and you hear a lot is if you are stranded on a desert island and you pick up a piece of paper and it has one little section of a couple of verses in it out of John 5…

    NKJ John 5:24 ” Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

    …the idea is that this one verse they pick up a couple of statements in there. They believe in the Son. They accept the gift of eternal life and they’ll believe. It doesn’t mention the cross. It is just mentioning this principle that Jesus came, offered eternal life and if you “accept me” you have eternal life. But there is no mention of the substitutionary atonement of Christ, no mention that Christ died for your sins, no understanding of any of these aspects. It is just accepting the gift of life from Jesus. They go to a number of passages in John to support this.

    The problem is that John 5 occurs before the cross. So Jesus hadn’t gone to the cross yet. So there is no mention of the cross and there is no mention of His substitutionary atonement. There are some other issues with that. What they have done is they have basically said you can become saved and you don’t have to believe in the cross. You don’t even have to know about the cross. In fact, you don’t have to believe that Jesus is God. They play around with the meaning of Jesus is the Christ the Son of God”.

    “Well, that just means something else. It is messianic term. It doesn’t means He’s full deity. You don’t have to believe the Messiah is full deity in order to get saved.” (I think this is quote by John Nimelma? Sue.)

    RD goes on “This is really tearing the Grace Evangelical Society apart. That’s why you have a new organization that is starting called the Free Grace Alliance that’s had some impact on Chafer Seminary and some other things. So this is why I emphasize this. When a person trusts in Christ for salvation, what does that mean? That He died on the cross for your sins.

    Paul says in I Corinthians 2:

    NKJ 1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

    NKJ 1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

    NKJ 1 Corinthians 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

    That was the priority. So this is very important to understand the content of the gospel. When you trust in that gospel, then God permanently justifies. He imputes righteousness, justifies, regenerates, gives eternal life and this cannot be lost no matter what a person does or does not do from that instant on until the day he dies.” End quote.

  17. Jim, Sue,

    I understand the theological phrase, “hypostatic union” — which is more easily comprehended when we simply say that Jesus is the Eternal, Inseparable God-Man in the flesh.

    But how does that square with my quote from Dean in Jim’s comment above? “The first death of the Savior was spiritual ,,,” and then Dean says “He paid for our sins while still physically alive. He then dismissed His own spirit to the Father …. and died physically.”

    Break it down:
    “The first death was spiritual” and later, “He then dismissed His own spirit to the Father …. and died physically.”

    Two separate deaths??? Just does not make sense to me.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  18. Sue says:

    Hello Jack
    I can see why you are concerned, it must be sorted.

    ‘Two separate deaths’ – to me, is like the first Adam. God said in dying you shall die (Hebraism). When Adam ate the fruit, he immediately died spiritually. His physical death came afterward; your ‘two separate deaths’. Jesus, the last Adam died spiritually as He took our sin upon Him. He ‘died’ in the sense He was separated from God the Father as Adam was when he ate the fruit. Jesus didn’t have His life taken from Him by the crucifixion of men, He said ‘no one takes it from me’ Jesus gave up His spirit to physically die of His own volition.

    That’s just my thought’s, I am not speaking for RD. I am still trying to find the context on audio and its taking time I don’t really have. In defence of RD’s teaching, he takes apart every verse and examines it minutely using the grammar with the Greek or Hebrew; that doesn’t suit everybody, but I really appreciate it. 🙂

  19. Jim F says:

    Sue,

    1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    This verse should be considered. In it we see that our sins were bore in his own body just as sin would have been placed upon the body and blood of the sheep in OT sacrifices. Sheep didn’t have souls in order for them to die spiritually. That was not the point. The point was that God’s wrath had to be satisfied by the shedding of blood. It had to be a spotless lamb without blemish. The same had to be true for Jesus. He had to be free from sin spiritually that is He had to remain Spiritually alive. Remember that Jesus is God and that God never has and never will sin. It was Jesus’ flesh that took on the sin of the world, bled, and died. His Spirit never died. If so, we are lost because He then couldn’t have been Savior.

    Also consider this passage specifically verses 5-7.

    Isa 53:1-12
    1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
    2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
    3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Also this:

    Zech 13:7
    Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (KJV)

    Matt 26:31
    31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. (KJV)

    I believe it is with this context in mind that we can understand 2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. How can we be made the righteousness of God in Him if Christ died Spiritually? The other thing is that when He said it is finished, I believe that He was announcing that the sin had been poured out on Him and that He was about to die physically thereby signifying that His atonement was at an end. I do not believe He was referring to some sort of Spiritual cross work that was taking on our sin Spiritually.

  20. Sue says:

    Hello Jim

    Its 4.30am , I have had some sleep but I wasn’t able to find the relevant messages of RD.

    This quick thought will have to do for a while. Jesus, as the 100% perfect man, surely had an undefiled human spirit.? It was Adams spirit that died when he sinned; physically he was still able to speak to God (the Pre-incarnate Christ) when A&E were covered in leaves. Because Adam was now dead spiritually, he would also die physically, in his case, much later.

    The Last Adam, Jesus did bear the sin of the whole world on His Body and his HUMAN spirit became separated from God as did the first Adam’s. Jesus human spirit could not stay dead as it was only imputed legally with our sin, in reality His human spirit was still pure and it re-entered His body at the resurrection.

    I shall have to leave it at this for a few days at least,. I am concerned that I am not doing justice to the teaching of an extremely competent teacher – who still has accusers from when he was deceived by a TV company. I’m probably rambling as I really must get a little more sleep.

    Can you phone RD to speak for himself? It’s too expensive from England or I would. Or send him an email; he is approachable and willing to answer queries.

    Night, night – or is that ‘good morning’? :-O

  21. Jim F says:

    Sue,

    I think some of this is going to go back to one of two things: the nature of the God Man Jesus Christ and the claim by Dean that Jesus died two deaths – one spiritual and one physical on the cross. We must remember that Jesus Christ was God and Man. Did Jesus Christ have the Spirit of God and the spirit of a human? I don’t believe so but there has been material written on this and would take to much time to go into right now. It is true that Jesus is the second Adam in a sense but there are a few differences especially since He is the God Man Christ Jesus. Adam was just a created man who had been given a human spirit.

    I will clear some of this up with my doctrinal statement (soon to come) and I may put up a couple stand alone pages but have not decided yet.

    Jim F

  22. mary says:

    who are the sermons other than tom cucuzza that i could listen to that are biblically sound.

  23. jimfloyd12 says:

    You can try Ralph Yankee Arnold for starters. He has many sermons on youtube. I’m currently listening to this one:

    Jim F

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