Lordship Salvation for “Dummies” ? Examining the Meaning of Faith

Recently I engaged in some discussion with Pastor and blogger Kent Brandenburg. He admittedly embraces a Lordship salvation view of the gospel.  One of his more recent posts was titled “Lordship Salvation for Dummies”.  In it, he explains what he perceives are his problems with not accepting a Lordship view of the gospel and what he believes Lordship salvation is.

This except from the long post pretty much sums it up:

“In Lordship salvation, belief includes repentance.  Repentance includes self-denial.  Repentance means turning from idols to serve the living and true God.  Belief is more than just intellectual and emotional, but also volitional.  In Lordship salvation, someone believes in Jesus Christ, and sacrosanct to a belief in Jesus Christ is that Jesus is God, Lord, and Savior.  All sin is against Lordship.  If someone turns from sin, that means he wants to do what the Lord says.  That means that He wants the righteousness, which is in Christ alone.”

Brandenburg on his church’s website under the heading “Salvation” says:

“There is a kind of faith that will not save, that is only intellectual.”

“Part of what it means to believe is to repent. “Repent” means “to turn.” Jesus said in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” We must turn from going our way to going Jesus’ way. Jesus describes it this way in Matthew 16:25: “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it..” We must give up our life, our own temporal life, in order to get eternal life. Jesus also said in Matthew 10:38, “He that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.”

(We must give up our life in order to get eternal life? No sir! That is a barter exchange for salvation. We cannot purchase or merit our salvation in that fashion. We must accept it as the free gift that it is by grace through faith.

Matthew 16:25 is talking about our service to Him as believers.  The result is rewards or loss of rewards. Look down at vs 27 where it says that every man shall be rewarded according to his works. For the believer this takes place a the Bema seat judgement of Christ. Matthew 10:38 is not saying that a person may not be worthy to be saved but they may not be worthy to follow and learn. Discipleship involves commitment and work. Obviously receiving the free gift of salvation does not require commitment and work otherwise it wouldn’t be free and it wouldn’t be by grace.)

One of the main things to understand is the Biblical definition of faith.  Think about it. What happens if the definition of faith (pistis) is belief / trust and we read verses such as: Eph 2:8-9 or Romans 4:5? Now what happens if we take the words faith (trust, belief) and believe (pisteuo – to place faith in something) and add into those definitions the concept of obedience, willingness to obey, commitment to discipleship, change of direction. Reading the verses again will then give totally different meanings. The new definitions contradict the phrases “But to him that worketh not,” and “…that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Notice what happens when we change faith to include LS style commitment? Do you see how two different pastors could read the whole Bible through with two different working definitions of faith and come up with a different gospel?  I think it is troubling indeed. The same thing can go for words like “repentance. ”

A lost man needs to repent (change his mind) trusting Christ for salvation. Once he is saved he can engage in: growing in Christ, walking with His Savior, learning more of His Savior, learning more of the Word, and adding to His faith the things mentioned in 2 Peter 1:5-7.

2Pe 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Notice verse 8. If these things be in you… It does not say if you have faith ye shall not be barren or unfruitful.  In verse 9 a believer that lacks these things is not pronounced unsaved or never saved in the first place but is pronounced as one that has forgotten that he was purged.  There are other parallels to this including James 1:21-27.

So make no mistake about the fact that the free grace advocates and LS advocates use different definitions of the same words. Making faith include works is a really good trick but a dangerous one. Beware.

One might ask, what is the big deal? Can’t we all just get along under one big tent? Honestly the answer is no, we can’t.  See, one of the most important things is the gospel. If there is no agreement on the gospel then there really is no agreement.

Jim F

For further reading please see the following:

http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2014/03/lordship-salvation-requirements.html

http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2008/07/summary-of-lordship-salvation-on-single.html

http://expreacherman.com/%E2%99%A6-lordship-salvation-defined/

http://expreacherman.com/believers-justification/

https://standforthefaith.wordpress.com/2013/09/07/the-foundation-of-eternal-security-a-breath-of-fresh-air/

https://standforthefaith.wordpress.com/2013/08/10/kyle-idleman-not-a-fan-and-common-problems-with-lordship-salvation-part-1/

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31 Responses to Lordship Salvation for “Dummies” ? Examining the Meaning of Faith

  1. Jim,

    Good report on a bad teacher. What a shame that such an apostate has any platform to speak — much less a church full of sheep to the slaughter and YouTube.

    In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack

  2. Jim: I really appreciate that you’ve drawn attention to and answering this latest attend to popularize Lordship Salvation’s corruption of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You wrote, “Can’t we all just get along under one big tent? Honestly the answer is no, we can’t.” I agree whole-heartedly.

    Lou

  3. jimfloyd12 says:

    Hi Jack,

    As we know he isn’t alone. The LS style gospel is proclaimed by many. Probably much more so than the Biblical gospel.

    Jim F

  4. jimfloyd12 says:

    You are welcome Lou.

    I hear so often from guys that are sympathetic to the dangers of LS but yet are unwilling to really put their foot down and quit tolerating it. My guess is that most of these guys are at least a little compromised themselves. (Bad definition of repentance or viewing faith as the gift of God) That or they don’t see the real threat. The most dangerous lies aren’t the obvious ones. I’m hoping that many more will come to see LS as an obvious lie. At least the Word of God itself speaks against it.

    Jim F

  5. hollysgarcia says:

    Jim, you asked the man, “We must give up our life in order to get eternal life?”

    I am always in awe of those statements, where are we told we must give up anything, in order to receive the free gift of eternal life? Unbelief maybe?

    Your ‘friend’ said something extremely telling to me. Reminds me of MacArthur stating that no, we do not receive Him as Savior but as Lord. (I think he forgot to say ‘only as Savior’)

    He said, “All sin is against Lordship”. I thought all sin was against God? Is ‘Lordship’ doctrine their god?

    John MacArthur says the same exact thing in “Hard to Believe”.

    I was listening to Kirk Cameron interview MacArthur on the heretical TBN Network. (Interesting, he will use heretics if it promotes his books). He gave a good example of “can’t we all just get along” by associating with the very people he condemns, very interesting. But on that video he does give a list of things you MUST present with the gospel. One was to be willing to give up your life to have eternal life, loosely quoting Jn 12:25. He qualifies what sins we are evidently not being saved from, i.e. a bad marriage, choice of a poor career etc.

    On MacArthur’s Website he says:

    “By contrast, Reformed theology, sound doctrine, is not a haven for false teachers. It’s not where false teachers reside. Reformed theology, sound doctrine, faithful, biblical exposition among the long line of godly men is not a place for false teachers. It’s not where frauds go. It’s not where greedy deceivers end up. It’s not where you find liars and those who misrepresent the truth. You’re not going to go to an association of Reformed churches, those who believe the doctrines of the Reformation that take us back to the doctrines of the New Testament….”
    “That is why a Christian today can go back and read the Apostles and then go back and read the Reformers and read the Puritans and follow the flow of the truth through history and find richness and understanding and clarity on every issue going all the way back.”

    He puts quite a lot of stock in ‘reformed theology’ doesn’t he? He did remember the apostles, but likens reformed theology to ‘faithful ,biblical exposition” and ‘long line of godly men’. (Sounds like the Roman Catholic church to me, only their church contains ‘sound doctrine’, or the ‘truth’, all else are false…)

  6. jimfloyd12 says:

    Holly,

    MacArthur does not understand that the Reformed churches as basically still in error. They have failed to go back to the truth concerning the gospel. Many left a Catholic style works gospel for their own works style Lordship / discipleship / slavery / master concept of the gospel. Brandenburg says at times he is not a Calvinist but will say that repentance is granted to people. I believe all men are now granted the general opportunity to repent. This is because Christ lived a sinless life, died as the atonement for us, and is risen again. All men can believe in Him but not many men will. Reformed men mean a totally different thing by it. They mean that God picked some and then granted them repentance and faith. They tend to use this caveat to avoid the charge of works since they will claim that God did the work for them.

    I think it is standard fare for LS proponents to claim you have to give up something for eternal life. Some picture it as the “kind” of faith you need will result in it. But that is saying the same thing really. For them if you lack the works they expect the you are seen as not saved or not likely saved. Talk about a slap in God’s face. He is capable of saving anyone despite struggles they may have in the Christian walk.

    Jim F

  7. hollysgarcia says:

    Yes, they are most definitely in error, and although they ‘reformed’ much of Catholicism, it’s still works based as you say.

    You are so right, they are not straightforward about the truth of the gospel. Whether it’s because they are a Judaizer or bewitched is the question with many. I know many do not confess to be a Calvinist, but are reformed in thinking, legalistic, and as far as Biblically speaking, it’s just Judaizing all over again.

    I agree with you that all men have the ability to repent, and believe. His grace has appeared to all men, through His works of creation, the heavens declaring His glory, people can see and know. All can see, none have an excuse (Rom 1). He gives light to all men. Gave us His Word so we can become ‘wise unto salvation’. His gospel which is the power of God unto salvation. From the beginning, the promise of a Messiah the first time man sinned. An unconditional promise which was to all who would believe….

    You said, “They tend to use this caveat to avoid the charge of works since they will claim that God did the work for them.” Yes, but how will they know? They can’t. At least John Piper is honest in stating his belief that ‘it takes a whole village to stay saved’ (see expreacherman.com)

    Giving up something? Yes, it is standard fare for them. The lists of the works they add to the gospel is so long, I cannot imagine how they think they have possibly passed the test. Maybe it is why they are constantly accusing others of being unsaved. It might make them feel more assured they might be. No different than Catholics, no way they could KNOW they are saved….

    It is a slap in His face isn’t it? Their filthy rags as part of the gift….Not…

  8. jimfloyd12 says:

    Yeah, it is sad that they will not believe that salvation is a free gift. Some even burn out and go from false grace to false grace of a different flavor. It is no wonder so few find the truth. I think it is because there are some many liars out there unwittingly doing the work of the father of lies.

    There really is no assurance for the LS proponent. Even MacArthur and Washer don’t sound so sure at times. I think Francis Chan, Sproul, Piper and others have made similar statements. All they seem able to do is press on hopefully thinking that they will prove to have been of the elect. I much prefer the truth that my eternal security is 100 percent tied in with Christ. Where He is, there will I be also.

    Jim F

  9. sam says:

    this is in response to LS advocates using different definitions of the same words.They usually tack on a lot of extra meanings to the word that they make up in their own mind.Micheal Halsey book truthspeak is an interesting read on this very subject maybe you have read it.

  10. jimfloyd12 says:

    Thanks Sam, I haven’t read it but I’ll check it out.

  11. jimfloyd12 says:

    Kent, what I am saying is that the flesh nature, old man, is always in rebellion with God. The New man isn’t. However believers have both present. One is corrupt and the other is incorruptible. We can walk in either, put off or put on either, and nurture either at any time for any period of time basically. That one which we feed most tends to become stronger. Now those who feed the flesh are not in fellowship as they ought to be, will miss out on various rewards, at the Bema, blessings in this life, and may even meet with chastening even up to physical death.

    We must remember that regeneration is not changing the old man, but creating the new. So therefore if a believer does something bad, even for a period of time, it does not prove he is unsaved but that he still has the old man present. I John 1 says we as believers lie if we say we have no sin. The remedy then is not to doubt our salvation because of it but to confess. I John 1:9.

    Jim F

  12. So a saved person lives a life of perpetual, habitual sin? That’s what I’m reading here. And the only difference between a saved and unsaved person is that he adds a new nature to an old one? However, he keeps on sinning, except now he gets to confess it and find a remedy in confession. And what about Paul in Rom 6, ye are dead indeed unto sin? This doesn’t sound like that. Grace seems like a get out of jail free card.

  13. jimfloyd12 says:

    Kent, a saved person sins anytime he walks in the flesh. They always have that choice so long as they live here on earth in the flesh. It is only at glorification when the body is done away and we receive the new glorified body to go along with the new man.

    The part of the difference between a saved and unsaved person is yes the fact that one has the new man and the other does not. The power of sin has been broken because the believer now has the option to live in the Spirit’s control in the new man. This is the reason Paul rebuked the Corinthian believers for their wickedness (their choices as believers were not good ones.) It also is the reason for the principle of putting off and putting on as I mentioned earlier. What is the other way of seeing this? Perseverance of the saints in which God forces you to do works and if you ever fail are shown to not be the Elect?

  14. jimfloyd12 says:

    Plus then how does anyone deal with the fact that believers do sin? I have heard the “a true believer will not practice sin” argument but that is not what the Bible says. It is that you must be perfect to enter heaven. So that means that we are perfectly righteous because Christ is perfectly righteous for us. So upon receiving the free gift of salvation that Christ earned for us by faith, we are regenerated. The new man is born separate from the old man (flesh nature). This is what Jesus meant to Nicodemus when he said marvel not that you must be born again.

    Jim F

  15. jimfloyd12 says:

    For everyone reading, please remember the simplicity of the gospel. Jesus Christ the sinless Son of God died on the cross for our sins and rose again providing salvation for all. Those who accept this free gift by faith (the only unmeritorious way to do so) is saved for all eternity from the penalty of sin. Works (including commitments to discipleship, fruit bearing, turning from sins) are not part of receiving the free gift. Also remember that this gift is not with strings attached. The gift of salvation is not an obligation. We serve God out of love for what He has done. Remember salvation is about what we receive from God not what we give to God for something in return.

    Jim F

  16. jimfloyd12 says:

    Dead indeed unto sin means that we can walk in the new man and the power of sin is broken. This doesn’t mean that we will never sin again. I have had Arminians tell me that they have obtained sinless perfection but that is impossible and they are lying anyway so go figure.

    Jim F

  17. Jim,

    I’m on my way out to church. But I didn’t say anything about sinless perfection. You jump to that extreme. I’m talking about habitual sin, and you didn’t answer that.

    Do you believe repentance is necessary for salvation (justification)?

  18. hollysgarcia says:

    Kent, you said, “So a saved person lives a life of perpetual, habitual sin? That’s what I’m reading here.”

    Sounds like a little eisegesis of the discussion here 🙂 You need to study a little more about ‘habitual’ or ‘practicing sin’, and then let us know what the percentage is that is acceptable.

    It is you who are reading things that have not been said INTO what has been said here.

    When Christ died, we who believed died to sin with Christ, meaning, we were freed from the penalty of sin (vs. 7), death has no more dominion over us (death where is thy sting?).

    The point is that we are still in the body of sin, and that evil is still present within us, even to the point of finding ourselves doing the very thing we do not want to do (chapt. 7), but He has delivered us from the penalty of sin, and by the power of the Word and the Spirit, we are being delivered from the power of sin in our lives in our walk, either by our cooperation, or by chastisement or chastening, circumstances in our lives, or worse things like a lack of fellowship with Him or believers, or as Jim mentioned physical infirmities or death, loss of rewards, etc.

    Paul was exhorting the church at Rome to reckon themselves dead to sin and to not let sin REIGN in their MORTAL body (yes, the corruptible is still with us), and he also exhorted for them to not YIELD their members as instruments of unrighteousness. Sin does not have dominion over us, since we are not under the law. We are married to another.

    Have you not heard?

    You said, “Grace is a ‘get out of jail free card’.

    Mock it if you wish, but yes it is. Grace is Jesus come in the flesh, God’s anointed. He preaches good news, He has come to bind up the brokenhearted, and to proclaim liberty to the captives, to open the prison doors to those who are bound…

    Sounds just like it is the Lord doing just what you said, whether you were scoffing or not.

    Our walk, walking worthy, happens as we grow in grace. Why don’t you learn what the gospel is, and what it is not, or you will be guilty of the blood of other men? I mean that in all sincerity. How well are you doing on the habitual sin department? Any anger? Any secret sins? Any pride? How much again Kent is acceptable?

    Please do give me a number or Biblical explanation as to how much is accepted for it not be ‘habitual’?

  19. jimfloyd12 says:

    Actually I did answer that. The Bible does not say that a believer can’t practice sin in this life. It says a believer must be perfect to enter heaven. I John 3

    Repentance is a change of mind. So in context of eternal salvation it always means changing your mind about what you are trusting for salvation. It is receiving the free gift of salvation by faith… as opposed to rejecting it or trying to receive it any other way.

    Jim F

  20. Brad4Grace says:

    Kent,

    All sin is habitual. That is what we do because that is what we are..sinners. The new birth does not eradicate the sin nature. Furthermore with brotherly love I ask you..Where does the bible define habitual sin? As Jim well said, with the new nature we have the choice whether to abide in that new nature (abide in Christ) or abide in our old flesh. As we grow in Christ, through our new position in him we have the option of bearing fruit…we SHOULD bear fruit. But to insist there MUST be fruit, is mixing up salvation from sanctification.
    I think the problem Kent is we often fail to realize just bad we really are from God’s perspective. God offers the free gift of salvation with no strings attached…it’s Grace. That should motivate us who have trusted Christ to walk with Christ and bear fruit. But nobody does it that ALL THE TIME…and if you start using words like habitual sin but cannot biblically define that, then really grace is no longer grace. It’s like saying Salvation is a free gift by trusting Christ alone…but if you do such and such a sin habitually than you never really trusted. Illustration: My friend Bob gives me a brand new shirt for my birthday. Bob watched me open the box…but Bob’s sister thinks I did not accept the gift since she has not seen me wear it yet. But Bob witnessed me open the box and accept the shirt. Bob’s sister’s not seeing me wear the shirt does not change the fact that Bob gave me the shirt I accepted the shirt.
    All believers SHOULD bear fruit, but on the principle of grace; for grace to be grace logically and biblically, some will live in the flesh be unfruitful.

  21. Hey Folks,

    I see where you are coming from and it’s interesting that Lou Martuneac comes on here to support the teaching here. Very interesting. He’s OK with a guy here calling me an apostate and shows his support of what we have here.

    In 1 John, if someone sins as a lifestyle, even if he says he knows God or says he’s a believer, he is not one. This is all over 1 John, but especially look at 1 John 2:1-5 and 1 John 3:1-10. Romans 6 doesn’t say that “death no longer has dominion over you,” but that “sin shall not have dominion over you.” This is not just a matter of adding a new nature to the old. Paul said “old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” When someone is justified, converted, whatever biblical word is used to describe salvation, he (Romans 8) no longer walks after the flesh, but after the Spirit. He is no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. The idea that you’re saved, but you remain an idolater does not fit what scripture says about salvation.

    The illustrations and the “logic” are no authority on salvation.

  22. Brad4Grace says:

    I agree Kent. The Word Of God is….Upwards of 160 passages condition faith as the one condition as receiving the gift of eternal life.

    Some of which include:
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9 NKJV
    3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
    5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, Romans 4:3-5 NKJV

    The problem with Lordship Salvation is really four-fold:
    Problem 1 It takes passages from places in the bible which are not about justification and make them about justification. (James 2 and 1 John are written for believers to encourage them to press forward to do good works and abide in Christ because the readers are saved.
    Problem 2 Eisigesis: MacArthur and others do the same thing with the passages in the gospels that the deal with discipleship and physically following Christ while he was on Earth and make them justification.
    Problem 3 A failure to understand the four types of salvation the bible addresses and to always make salvation to be a synonym for justification.
    Spiritual Salvation For the beleiver past-tense salvation (Justification) Salvation from sin’s penalty
    recieved at a moment in time when one trusts Christ alone for their spiritual salvation.
    Present Tense Salvation- Salvation from the power of sin in one’s life (Present Tense Salvation)
    Future Tense Salvation (Glorification) Salvation from the Presence of Sin
    And Physical Salvation…sometimes the bible uses the word salvation to describe deliverance from danger Matthew 24:13 for example.

    Kent, I encourage you to study this out and pray that you come to see the wondrous grace of God in salvation and sanctification.

  23. Kent:

    I occasionally visit/comment at this site because it is a partner in defense of the gospel against the false interpretation of the gospel, commonly known as Lordship Salvation. I was not aware, until well after I first came across your blog, that you advocate Lordship Salvation. Just as John MacArthur before you, you have fallen into the trap of a works based, man-centered message that corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3) and frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21). You fell the same way John MacArthur did just as Dr. Ernest Pickering described in his review of MacArthur’s The Gospel According to Jesus. He wrote,

    John MacArthur is a sincere servant of the Lord, of that we have no doubt…. We believe in his advocacy of the so-called lordship salvation he is wrong. He desperately desires to see holiness, lasting fruit, and continuing faithfulness in the lives of Christian people. This reviewer and we believe all sincere church leaders desire the same…. But the remedy for this condition is not found in changing the terms of the gospel.”

    Kent, we hope and pray that you will one day be recovered from and repent of having taught Lordship Salvation.

    Jim, keep up the good work here.

    LM

  24. Lou,

    There is only one gospel and it means believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus is Lord. If you believe in Him, you believe in Him, and He is Lord. Separating Jesus from His Lordship, especially in light of Romans 10:9-10, and therefore separating the gospel from repentance is a false gospel. You preach a false gospel, Lou, but I at least can be happy that you are obvious with it so people can see it and beware. Your book was one of the most convoluted presentations of the Gospels I have ever seen, forcing passages to keep your pet doctrine alive. I pity you. The fact that you believe that someone who is saved lives in habitual sin, as they are asserting here is tell-tale to your error.

  25. jimfloyd12 says:

    Kent,

    I’ll respond one more time to your comment just so that people see the two different views being put forth from the same passages and then can decide for themselves.

    I John 2:3-6 is talking about abiding.

    1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    “Know Him” here in this context is referring to our ongoing knowledge of Him in our Christian walk. Those that sin and fail to abide are not lost or proving to be lost but are liars in that they really don’t know the Savior like they ought. This idea is similar to chapter 1 when is says:

    “1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

    This passage is clearly talking about our ongoing fellowship with God as believers. Those believers that walk in darkness (walking in the old man flesh nature) and say they are in fellowship are lying and need to see verse 9.

    Remember our works can indicate if we are walking with God or if we are not abiding. They don’t however prove or disprove whether or not we are born again in the first place.

    For I John 3 consider these verses:

    1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    3:6 is talking about abiding. It is the same idea as if we walk in the Spirit we will not obey the lusts of the flesh. This is because the new man does not sin. 3:9 then is the key here, “whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin” – this is talking about the new man. It is saying that this new man does not commit even one sin. It is not talking about a “practice” of sin as some Bible versions and commentators will say.

    Romans 6 is also not against the grace gospel. Consider some of these verses

    Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    “Should walk in newness” – not will always

    Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    “Should not serve sin” – doesn’t mean that we can’t ever as believers – though we should never do so we technically have the capacity.

    If one naturism is so correct then why these verses amongst others!?

    Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    6:11 is us doing the reckoning. Then in 12 we see the direction not to let sin reign. This means that we could technically indeed let sin reign. Otherwise the command is ridiculous and meaningless. Same thing for verse 13. We are to instead yield ourselves unto God. What is the point is were are going to be sin free having a new nature only or if we are going to be made to persevere?

    Also, part of the reason that sin no longer hath dominion over us is precisely because we are no longer under the law but under grace. The problem with Lordship salvation is that it puts one back under the law as opposed to grace.

    I’ll make one more comment then that is all for this post unless someone has something earth shattering.

    Jim F

  26. jimfloyd12 says:

    Lou, Holly, and Brad. Thanks all for standing for the faith each in your own way. I know Kent is not wanting to hear it but we have witnessed what we believe to him faithfully.

    I gladly stand for the grace gospel. I praise God for it often.

    Jim F

  27. johninnc says:

    Kent, I heard a great sermon yesterday given by pastor Thomas Cucuzza of Northland Bible Baptist Church. It is entitled “It’s All of Christ”. Following are excerpts, along with a link. I have prayed that you will listen to it.

    Excerpts:

    Minutes 34:20 – 35:01

    Listen! Here’s the truth. Let me shock you this morning. You can trust Jesus Christ as Savior and never live for Him and go to heaven. “I can’t believe that.” Then you don’t get grace. You do not understand grace. Grace is unmerited. Now, we should not live that way. We should not live in a sinful way. But, the fact is, that every one of us still sins. Every one of us. And, whether you do a million or whether you do one, you still have failed to live right and so you can’t go to heaven that way.

    Should we live for Christ once we’re saved? Yes, we should. Paul agreed with that, I agree with that. I say amen to that.

    Minutes 36:35-36:52

    What if you don’t live for Christ? You still go to heaven if you’ve trusted Him as Savior. “Well, I can’t accept that!” Let me tell you something friend. There’s a very good chance you are still lost and on your way to hell, because you are looking at your own merit, your own faithfulness, as the way to heaven.

    Link:
    http://northlandchurch.com/content.cfm?id=213&download_id=30

  28. Kent: Not even worthy of comment. Sad, sad, sad.

  29. hollysgarcia says:

    It is sad, and for those Kent teaches, for it will bring him a stricter judgment….

  30. Sandy says:

    It sounds like you are saying that a believer must trust Christ plus believe your doctrine of repentance or he is not saved because I am teaching a false gospel. I thought salvation was receiving the gospel (not a plan of salvation), not based on a particular set of doctrines, but simply the gospel of Christ.

  31. jimfloyd12 says:

    Sandy, how in your view does a person receive eternal life? Is it not received through faith? eph 2:8 What is repentance? It is a change of mind so in context of receiving eternal life it is synonymous with faith. We change our minds to trust Christ alone for salvation based on the gospel.

    Jim F

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