No Real Scriptural Support for Calvinism – Sovereignty and Unconditional Election

Many people ask “What is Calvinism”, and “Is it taught in the Bible?” To help answer these questions, let’s first consider the acronym T.U.L.I.P. Calvinism is not solely contained 100% within TULIP but the overall teaching is summarized very well by its five most popularized main points.  So to examine the supposed scriptural support I have decided to take the list given from and evaluate all relevant verses and passages to see where this teaching is really coming from and if there really is Biblical precedent for this view.

In going with their given order let’s first consider their verses given on God’s “Sovereignty” and Unconditional Election (the U in TULIP).

So the following verses are listed as support for God’s “Sovereignty”. We must note that, for what it is worth, this word is not used in the King James Bible. This will also be part of a longer series on Calvinism. Because so many verses are used, it will be beneficial to consider all of them to some degree or another.

I will follow their given outline and follow up with my commentary as to whether or not the verse supports Calvinism.

Election God is Sovereign

Exo 15:18 – no direct implication – shall reign forever

1Chr 29:11-12 – no direct implication – exalted head, king

2Chr 20:6; – no direct implication – rules over all kingdoms

Psa 22:28 – no direct implication –kingdom is the Lord’s

  1. He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything

Deu 32:39 – no, not in the context – I kill, I make alive, I wound, I heal etc

1Sam 2:6-8 – no, lord killeth, make alive, bringeth down, lifteth up

Job 9:12 – no direct implication – who can hinder him or question him

Job 12:6-10 n0 – the Lord involved in creation

Psa 33:11 no – the Lord’s counsel stands forever

Psa 115:3 no – done whatever He had pleased, they try to tie this back to a supposed choosing of who will believe, however it was a corporate choosing

Psa 135:6 – same as above

Isa 14:24 – I have thought- it will come to pass, I have purposed it will stand, (still no tie to election, this has to do specifically with His judgement on Babylon)

Isa 45:7 – no, creator of light and dark, make peace and evil (calamity) context of God the maker –this is spoken in rebuke to Cyrus

Act 15:18 – God knows the Lord’s works from eternity- no correlation to election

Eph 1:11 – the inheritance for believers is foreordained – (not those who will believe are foreordained to believe)

    • Including matters of “chance”

Pro 16:33 the verdict is the Lord’s – (this does not really support the view)

1Ki 22:20 (this is really unrelated)

34 same

37 same

    • The wicked actions of men

Gen45:5 God provided their deliverance through Joseph – (nothing to do with election of individuals, has to do with national Israel – God allowed them to sell Joseph. Gen50:20 Exo 4:21 – God knew that Pharaoh’s heart would be hardened, Calvinists try to reason then that God will harden unbelievers (non-elect) to reject the gospel)

Jdg 14:1-4 – (nothing to do with election – a great stretch)

Psa 76:10 – (nothing to do with election)

Pro 16:4 – made the wicked for the day of calamity , (calvinists try to use this verse to say that God makes wicked people to be destroyed. Sounds different in Young’s literal: Pro 16:4  All things hath Jehovah wrought for Himself, And also the wicked worketh for a day of evil.)

Isa 44:28 (nothing to do with election – has to do with Jerusalem)

Amos 3:6 evil – affliction, calamity, adversity

Act 2:22-23 – (It was God’s plan that Christ was to be the sacrifice. This does not mean though that God wills sin as in the sinful actions of those that killed the Savior! This means that He would allow them to do so. There is a difference.)

Act 4:27-28 – same

    • The actions of evil spirits

1Sam 16:14-16; 1Ki 22:19-23; 1Chr 21:1/2Sam 24:1 (not relevant to election)

    • The good actions of men

John 15:16 – (This was choosing the disciples, not some for salvation)

Eph 2:10 – created unto good works – we should walk in them –(This is nothing to do with electing people to believe or reject.)

Phi 2:12-13 – (This is dealing with sanctification.)

    • The actions of good angels

Psa 103:20 – they obey – (nothing to do with election)

Psa 104:4 – (nothing relevant to the issue here – He made the angels)

    • The actions of animals

Num 22:28 – (a special circumstance)

1Ki 17:4 – same

Psa 29:9 (not relevant)

Jer 8:7; (doesn’t even fit)

Eze 32:4 – (directed to in judgement – nothing to do with election)

Dan 6:22 (the angel did it)

    • The operations of all creation

Gen 8:22; Psa 104:5-10; Psa 104:13-14; Psa 104:19-20; Mark 4:39 – (not relevant)

  1. Man is not permitted to question his sovereign acts

Job 33:12-13; Isa 29:16; Isa 45:9-10; Mat 20:1-16; (nothing to do with this topic but this parable is interesting)

Rom 9:19-24 – (has to do with national Israel)

(We have no right to question God’s choices. This is exactly why we should not question that God chose to save those who would trust Christ as their Savior. God never decided for people if they would or wouldn’t believe the gospel.)

So far there have been no verses supporting the actual Calvinistic idea of unconditional election.

Part 2
God elects [i.e. chooses, predestines, foreordains]

  1. His angels

1Tim 5:21 – (refers to elect angels, angels that were chosen for a purpose, has to do with angels and their purposes not men)

  1. His peculiar people, Israel

Exo 6:7; Deu 7:6-8; Deu 10:14-15; Psa 33:12; Isa 43:20-21 – (It is not disputed that God chose national Israel as His people. This is not the same as choosing who will or won’t believe. Not even all of his chosen Israel believed.)

  1. Individuals to salvation

Psa 65:4 – (This isn’t talking about choosing some to believe the gospel, specifically vs 4 is not talking about receiving eternal life – it has more of the idea of abiding)

Mat 24:24 – (This verse merely mentions the elect. It says nothing about what they were chosen for or what criteria was used. This particular verse also has to do with end times post rapture.)

John 6:37 – (Who are the ones that God gives to Christ(God)… those that believe – look back up to verse 35. This is repeated in verse 40. This passage also mentions eternal security as opposed to Calvinism’s perseverance.)

John 15:16 – (This is speaking specifically of the 12 disciples and not in context of choosing them for salvation but of service. This chapter starts out talking about abiding then verse 8 is in context of abiding in the Christian walk. John 15:8  Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. – These verses further prove it was about the disciples in terms of their service and future calling to witness. – John 15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:27  And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.)

Act 13:48 – (Look back a verse. Act 13:47  For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. It had been confirmed that salvation was available to Gentiles. Those who wanted it believed. Act 13:48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (The gentiles here receive the news that the gospel is available to them and they believe (receive it by faith) because they were disposed to or determined in their own mind to receive it should it be confirmed that it is possible for them. This is why they were glad in the first part of the verse. They had been exposed to some preaching earlier and wanted to hear more. See verse 42. Act 13:42  And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.)

Rom 8:28-30 – (verse 28 is talking about those that love God and are called, verse 29 Foreknow means to know beforehand. Period. So God knows who will believe the gospel. Those who do are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. VS 30 These same believers were called, justified (positionally) and glorified (positionally). We don’t receive our glorified bodies till we reach heaven.)

Rom 9:10-24 (This is talking not about individuals to salvation but it is speaking of the choosing of national Israel through Jacob and not through Esau. Also consider verses 30 through 32. How did the gentiles receive salvation? By faith. How did Israel reject? By choosing the law as opposed to receiving salvation by faith. No where does it say that God made his chosen national people not believe. Why would God make someone do something He does not want them to do? He is not divided against himself!)

Rom 11:5-7 – Mentions the “election of grace”. This is in context to chosen national Israel by in large rejecting  but a remnant decided to believe. This election of or choosing of grace as the method is further explained in verse 6. So to clarify it is by grace (unmerited favor) therefore it is not of works otherwise grace ceases to be grace. This is another reason why Calvinism cannot be true. More on that later in future posts once we get to perseverance of the saints.)

Verse 7 Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded . (God has allowed them by their own choice to be blinded. Why? For two reasons: through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles and because of this to provoke them to jealousy. See verse 11 Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.)

Eph 1:3-6 (Verse 3 talks about spiritual blessings chosen for those that are believers. Vs 4 Chosen us in him. God knew who would believe and be in Him. These were chosen then for certain benefits and for certain general types of service. Nothing here actually says God chose some to believe in Him. That is not how the verse reads but that is what Calvinists read into the verse. And what specifically were we chosen for in him? That we should be holy and blameless before him in love. I see this both as a blessing and a calling to service/fellowship. Vers 5 speaks of another benefit namely of the adoption of believers as sons of God, this adoption is to the  good pleasure of His will. This adoption does not happen before we believe. This all shows the glory of His grace. Because God gracious to provide salvation to all men and indeed some believed and thise will receive the adoption of sons.)

Eph 1:11-12 (This is not choosing some to believe but rather continuing the earlier thought. Those of us who have believed have obtained a future inheritance. This inheritance is predestinated according to God. This is a statement affirming security of the believer. Why? V12 That we should be to the praise of His glory who what? First trusted in Christ. Not who were first made to trust Christ. See then verse 13 (Calvinists like to skip this one.) So we hear the truth of the gospel of our salvation, believe, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. This sealing then is the earnest  of the future inheritance. It is assured 100 percent that the inheritance will take place. This also refutes perseverance of the saints.)

1Thes 1:4 – (This election is the same as in the sense in Ephesians, not choosing some to believe but benefits for those who believe.)

1Thes 5:9 – (This speaking in contextof the end times and is simply confirming that believers are not appointed to wrath.)

2Thes 2:13-14  – (This is the only one that I think comes the closest to at least sounding on the surface like Calvinistic election but it does not support it once examined closely.  For one thing this is talking in context of the future tribulation time. We need to start back at verse 12. This is talking about damnation for those after the rapture that did not believe. Verse 13. Notice hear that this is clarifying the method of salvation. Which is through our belief of ther truth not through God pre-selecting us. Vs 14 We were called through the gospel. Men must receive the gospel by faith in order to receive eternal life. We in this age of grace now have the opportunity to receive the gospel by faith. It will not be the same for many after the rapture. The time to make the choice is now.)

  1. Individuals to condemnation

(Not all Calvinists claim this position but logically speaking it would be included.)

Exo 4:21 – (The hardening was in relation to not letting the people go and not in relation to salvation. Pharaoh made his own choices and God allowed them.)

Rom 9:13 – (This had to do with choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau – not for eternal life but for national Israel.)

Rom 9:17-18 -(This has to do with God allowing Pharaoh’s rise for his own purposes of displaying His power and name. It has nothing to do with some type of choosing that Pharaoh could not possibly believe the truth.)

Rom 9:21-22 – (This is still in relation to people like Pharaoh and Esau who were allowed by God to make the choices they made. God showed longsuffering to Pharaoh that his power could be displayed. This chapter is not about reception of eternal life until verse 30. And it affirms salvation is by faith not by pre-selection done by God.)

1Pet 2:8 – (This is similar to end of Romans 9.)

His motivation in election

  1. His own good pleasure

Eph 1:5 – (this is in reference to predestination unto the adoption of sons – this is a benefit of salvation. It pleases God to adopt all believers as sons.)

2. The display of his glory

Isa 43:6-7; Rom 9:22-24; 1Cor 1:27-31; Eph 2:4-7; Pro 16:4
(The first two are not talking about electing someone to believe. 1 Cor 1:31 does mention glorying in the Lord but this passage is not about God electing some to believe. Eph 2:4-7 is also consistent with my view of election. These verses do not advocate unconditional election. Pro 16:4 – Made the wicked for what, the day of evil – not to have no choice but to not believe.)

3. His special love

Deu 7:6-8; 2The 2:13
(Deut 7:6-8 is talking about Israel. 2 Thes 2:13 sounds like unconditional election at first glance but is actually talking about God choosing the method of salvation. The next verse mentions they were called by the gospel and we know that they believed the truth.)

4. His foreknowledge

Rom 8:29; 1Pet 1:2
(God knew who would believe and he predestinated that all who believe would be conformed to the image of His Son. This is not saying God chose who would believe. Yes we are elect according to the foreknowledge but what does it mean to be elect? This verse does not define the Calvinist sense of election.)

    • Which means his special love

Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Mat 7:22-23; 1Cor 8:3; 2Tim 2:19; 1Pet 1:20
(Jer 1:5 does not mention love. This is choosing for a calling in life, not for salvation. Amos3:2 talks about judgement for Israel, Mat 7:22-23 – judgement for those that did not believe, 1Cor 8:3 – has to do with us loving God – not election, 2Tim 2:19 – all this says is that God knows those who are his and that those that are his should depart from iniquity – this is not anything to do with unconditional election – God can know who  have believed and are born again. He can know who will believe without having to pre-plan that they will. physically make them do so. 1Pet 1:20 – Yes, Christ was foreordained from time past to be the Savior but this was for all people, not s select few. It actually destroys unconditional election because Christ died for the whole world. John 3:16 )

    • But not:

Any good [nobility, wisdom, power, choice, seeking] he foresees in anyone Deu 7:7; Rom 9:11-13; Rom 9:16; Rom 10:20; 1Cor 1:27-29; 1Cor 4:7; 2Tim 1:9
(Some of these are talking about Israel, Rom 10:2o is not in reference to election, 1Cor 1:27-29 – not relevant to this, I Cor 4:7 – not about election itself, 2Tim 1:9 -look at the very next verse, how were they saved? through believing the gospel.

No where in all of this does God actually say that He chooses people to believe or makes people believe.

“Unconditional election” as shown has nothing to stand on. It should instead be rejected as unbiblical. It becomes even more clear when you start looking at verses that actually refute it. With none of the ones given supporting it, there would be no defense. Please don’t be intimidated by or confused by it any longer. Reject it as the creation of men that it is.

Jim Floyd

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28 Responses to No Real Scriptural Support for Calvinism – Sovereignty and Unconditional Election

  1. jimfloyd12 says:

    For anyone interested, There is a great article on eternal security here.

  2. jimfloyd12 says:


    Yes. I have decided to remove your posts concerning the falsehood you were pushing namely that one can lose their salvation. I will put up a new post in the future to explain more fully why that notion is incorrect. I will not give up on the true gospel for your false works gospel. It wouldn’t be the right thing to do Biblically. There are also other posts on here that already refute your claim. This particular one is for Calvinism and election.

  3. Curtis M says:

    The thief on the cross and not even a good thief because he got caught he was a failure at being a failure Yet He admits he is getting what he deserves Justly in front of spectators and Jesus .
    He is admitting he is a sinner and paying for his sin by his own life . Then says to Jesus , Remember me .

    And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds:
    Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
    Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
    Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
    Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    also please don’t bring your doubts about the authority of scripture and attempt to make them my doubts simply because i don’t speak greek . I Speak English

  4. Evan says:

    Despite our different view, I thank you for you the cordial nature of your discussion.

  5. jimfloyd12 says:

    Ok, maybe we are getting on a little further with our discussion. My bigger concern is that you consider through the other scriptures that eternal life, once received, lasts forever. To that end I can speak more to what you have said maybe later today or tomorrow

    Jim F

  6. jimfloyd12 says:

    Evan, I think what you are missing is the concept that this is talking about the new man. It is not saying that the believer cannot practice sin through the flesh. Think about it, how would you even quantify that? (As John already mentioned.) How much constitutes a practice, the same sin twice, three times, a habit pattern? It doesn’t fit with scripture and it’s constant rebuke of eternally saved disobedient believers. Eternal life once received at the moment of faith/ conversion is not going to ever cease being eternal. Otherwise you couldn’t call it eternal life to begin with.

    And even if it means practice, could the new man practice sin, no, could the believer practice it through the old man? Yes. Besides you seem to be saying that you have more Greek knowledge than the KJV translators. Whatever.

    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Or the NKJV

    Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

  7. Curtis M says:

    the law of the Spirit
    Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    The whole point to romans 8 is laying down basic fundamental Identification Truth . We don’t live the christian life by trying to live the christian life anymore than trying to keep the 10 commandments by keeping the 10 commandments AND also produce the fruits of the spirtit , love joy peace …….
    that is a project there in the energy of the flesh that WILL drive a soul into the ground with their own hammer. A soul attempting that is trying to live like a Hebrew who’s not even a Hebrew .
    I can’t Live the christian life!!!! the Holy Spirit says , Hey he is finally getting it
    The Holy Spirit fulfills all by the Law of the Spirit a higher Law FOR US in spite of ourselves we are either filled with the Spirit or Carnal there is no middle ground . We also don’t produce fruit we bare it , producing fruit is Holy Spirits Work or it is rejected
    we don’t get more of Holy Spirit as believer souls in Christ Jesus we are either spiritual or carnal The key to living the christian life is stop working stop striving , YIELD to Holy Spirit
    As a Truck Driver one thing souls do not know how to do or practice is Yielding is see it all the time people fussing and fighting over fractions of a second for a position ahead of another soul only to exit off the next exit ramp.
    Will you allow the Holy Spirit to dictate policy to You ? Leed you? Guide You ? How ?
    By enjoying God’s Word allow the Word of God to direct your thinking allow the Word of God to Change your thinking (Repent) .

    Context ,Content ,Compare Conclude There are no contradictions in the Word of God

  8. jimfloyd12 says:

    And Yankee is quite correct, besides your faulty works based salvation falls flat in light of a plethora of other scriptures. Bottom line is if you receive eternal life through faith then you are saved at that very moment on. Once you receive the purchased gift of eternal life how long do you presume it lasts. It is not that hard, seriously. It last forever, and nothing you do in the fleshly old man can alter the new man (which does not sin nor does it perish- it is incorruptible) One day it will have a heavenly body to match.

  9. jimfloyd12 says:

    Btw, the word on verse 9 is poieo. It basically means to do or to commit. Not to practice. So that is even one sin. It is present active indicative according to the interlinear. It means the new man does not now commit sin as I said before.

  10. jimfloyd12 says:


    Yes, the law is fulfilled in us as believers because we are now identified with Christ who fulfilled it. Only believers can walk after the Spirit. The word “practice” is a bad translation in some bible versions.

  11. jimfloyd12 says:


    Since this original post is about Calvinism I won’t continue a lot more about an Arminianism style loss of salvation but suffice it to say :

    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    It is either or, either you are saved eternally or under God’s wrath having never believed. There is no such thing as in and out or saved one moment/ unsaved the next. Eternal life is not a hot potato.

  12. jimfloyd12 says:

    Evan, I have shared this elsewhere but here is a longer explanation of 1 John 3

  13. jimfloyd12 says:

    Also, remember Romans 8:9. It says

    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    This is positional. We as believers are not positionally in the flesh but can walk practically in the flesh. What did many NT believers do? The often acted contrary to the Spirit’s leading and were rebuked for it.

  14. jimfloyd12 says:

    You also use 1 John 3:7 incorrectly. It is a common misconception concerning that passage.

    Do not forget verse 9
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    It is talking about the new man. The new man born of God does not sin. The old man still can. Believers can choose to act in either any moment. Paul describe his experience with this in Romans 7. He wasn’t using Romans 7 to say he was getting saved, losing it, and getting saved again.

  15. jimfloyd12 says:

    Once again as I said before, abiding is a choice believers can make that has no bearing on eternal life or eternal security.

  16. jimfloyd12 says:


    Yes, believers can become apostate but not unsaved. They can deny the faith or have their faith become shipwreck etc but that is not what keeps them saved. Believers do not have to fulfill the law to be saved. Christ has already filled for us. If you need a longer explanation I can offer on later.

  17. jimfloyd12 says:


    Back to Romans 8:13, it sounds to me that you are taking the verse out of context.

    1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

    (None eternally – being in Christ here is a once for settled thing – not conditional such as abiding in Christ)

    who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Positional)
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (We are freed of it’s eternal sentence and freed of its temporal power)

    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:( Christ did it all – so why going back to law keeping in essence to stay saved – it could save you in the first place.)
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(after the Spirit still positionally)
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Unsaved people cannot be subject anyway)
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.(Unsaved cannot please God)
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.(The Spirit indwells the believer. This is also a seal of promise for a purchased possession. There is no breaking it.)
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.(Believers have both the dead old man by way of the flesh and yet the alive new man in Christ)
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.(Not only are we eternally saved but one day our bodies will be changed also into incorruptible bodies. This is a guarantee not a conditional promise.)
    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.(Has no more say or rule over us)
    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.(this is still positional in keeping with context)
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.(Those who believe are born again John 3, and are born as the sons of God. As sons we are heirs.)
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.(There is often great amounts of fear that can be experienced if we think we have to live a certain was to stay saved. But how contrary that is to this verse. Instead we know who our eternal Father is. We cannot be separated from his love as is stated latter.)
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:( the Holy Spirit bears witness Himself that we are sons. Once a son always a son. I will always be my earthly fathers son. In the same token I will always be my Heavenly Father’s son. And I can disobey both and grieve both. But out of love I can choose not to.

  18. jimfloyd12 says:

    Right Curtis, the whole point of being saved eternally is that you will never perish in hell. The Bible is emphatic on that. God would have to have lied for it to be so. Once covered by the blood that is it, there remains no more sacrifice for sins. Heb 6. We can technically choose to disobey the Lord in our Christian walk as many NT believers did but none of them lost salvation. It wasn’t theirs to earn and it wasn’t up to them to keep it through performance. Neither does God make us keep it through performance. It has already been paid for by Christ. His physical life for our eternal wellbeing.

  19. Curtis M says:

    unto him to present you faultless
    Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

  20. Curtis M says:

    Evan said “The Word of God does not contradict itself.” “it stands to reason that”

    what we have here is failure to separate Justification and Sanctification/Practical Sanctification

    Birth Truth , Growth Truth

    or do we need to redefine what contradict means ? by reasoning of Evan ?

    upon all them that believe
    Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    justified by faith
    Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    justified by faith
    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    that ye may know that ye have eternal life,
    1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

  21. jimfloyd12 says:

    Evan, eternal life is conditional upon trusting Christ alone (one time) as Savior. Compare the Heb five verse to Romans 10:16. Rom 10:16
    But they have G5219 not all obeyed G5219 the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    The Bible is not unclear on this. Verse after verse clearly states that it is by faith and not only that but you can know that you are saved eternally from the very moment you believe. There is no such thing as waiting around to see if you will make the cut. I’ll attempt to answer some of your other assertions later.

  22. johninnc says:

    For a believer, failing to walk in the Spirit would include trying to keep rules to make sure one maintains eternal life. This is what the apostle Paul referred to in Galatians as falling from grace. The people in the Galatian church had believed in Christ alone as Savior, and thus has eternal life that could never be lost or forfeited. However, they had been bewitched by false brethren, who apparently had never trusted in Christ alone (hence, the false brethren were not saved).

    For a nonbeliever to become a believer, he must, at some point, trust in Christ alone as Savior. Trusting in Christ alone as Savior means realizing that one can not lose eternal life due to sin. If one could lose eternal life, then Jesus did not pay for all of his sins, and the entire plan of salvation would be a farce.

    If Romans 8:13 means that a believer can lose eternal life, then the Bible could not be the word of God.

    I would encourage anyone who thinks a believer might lose his eternal life to read the booklet linked below.

    Click to access cucuzza-the-permanence-of-salvation.pdf

  23. Brad says:

    Thanks Jim. I don’t detect that spirit about him. He’s about as likeable as they come. I just think he’s had some Calvinist indoctrination in the past. But, he’s super smart and willing to listen. For all the puffed up pastors that I’ve dealt with, he doesn’t come off as arrogant at all.

  24. jimfloyd12 says:

    That is a good reply to him Brad. Hopefully he is not stringing you along.


  25. Brad says:

    Yea… the more I read that doctrinal statement is seems kind of Calviny… (sic) lol

    Here is a back and fourth between that pastor and me…

    He said:

    “I do see where you’re coming from. However that was not the question you asked, at least as I uderstood it. Framing it that way you wisely expose the problem of Tulip. However, it also opens the door for the equally terrible error of Arminianism. While throwing out the L of TULIP we mustn’t lose sola Gratia as well.”

    I replied:

    “I believe in Grace Alone, but we can’t throw out “Through faith” either. However, faith or simply “Believing” is not a work (Romans 4:5) nor is the ability to believe a special gift, so we can still completely throw out the L without falling into error.

    “Everybody” can believe in all sorts of things. One must believe the Gospel to be saved. Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-5. Anybody has the ability to do that. The ability is not a gift. Is it a special gift to believe / put your faith in whether or not a chair will hold you up if you sit in it? That same, simple, non gifted faith must be placed in Christ for salvation. To understand believing as a special gift or even part of a special gift is basically saying even breathing is a special gift. I don’t think that’s what Paul meant. The special Gift is salvation / eternal life. Romans 6:23.

    Proponents of free grace are never saying it’s ok to sin once we are saved. I’ve heard of Hyper Gracers, but I think they are just some theory somebody conjured up to make free grace believers look bad. The key word in Eph 2:10 is “Should.” Of course we should do good works after we are saved. That is our “Reasonable Service.” Rom 12:1

    We aren’t robots of perfection though after we are saved. lol We still have the ability to grieve the Holy Spirit, and one cannot put a limit on that. Otherwise, that would be putting a limit on Grace itself. There is still consequence and discipline for the non obedient Christian; however, hell is not that consequence, but physical death could be. The attempt to “Abuse Grace” is never worth it. 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 11:30.”


    He replied back:

    “Brilliantly said. Amen.”

  26. Brad says:


    That Pastor that I have been going back and fourth with and attending his church is starting to understand what I’ve been telling him. I think he was on the last thread of Calvinism, but he has completely agreed that I am right. He said this Arnold Fruchtenbaum is an acquaintance of his and if there is any theology he backs it’s his. His link is below, and he seems pretty sound. I think I am going to keep going to this church. At least the Pastor has 0 pride and is willing to listen to everything I have to say and even concedes when he feels he needs to. There is a lot to say about his humbleness when most pastors I’ve been dealing with tend to puff up after a while.

    (Link removed. I’m not sure about that Brad so I have removed it.)


  27. hollysgarcia says:

    This is a great list Jim, need to bookmark this for further reference.

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